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ffs im athiest so try not to interject anything too much about God for once But why do we decide that some things are good and some are bad.As in why do we all universally assume that something is 'Good' Where did these principles develop from.I may be going of topic.But what im trying to say is where to right and wrong come from?.
Morality could come from 3 things.
1.From us:Morality comes from how we reflect or feel about things.We make things wrong or right by approving or disapproving of things according to our feelings.
2.God If God disproves of something we all go to Hell.
ffs im athiest so try not to interject anything too much about God for once But why do we decide that some things are good and some are bad.As in why do we all universally assume that something is 'Good' Where did these principles develop from.I may be going of topic.But what im trying to say is where to right and wrong come from?.
Morality could come from 3 things.
1.From us:Morality comes from how we reflect or feel about things.We make things wrong or right by approving or disapproving of things according to our feelings.
2.God If God disproves of something we all go to Hell.
3.Things are right and wrong anyway.
Discuss.
Quote:
ffs im athiest
Awesome way to open a thread.
Morales are something which grow with society, and morales are not universal.
I'm atheist as well. Funny how one of my life rules originates from Christianity. "Do onto others as you would wish them do onto you."
Like you said, it revolves around feeling. If it's feel good or "right" for me to do, then fine. Then again, this could totally backfire because, for example, if a phyco killer gets enjoyment and fulfillment from taking others lives, what stops him from taking mine? and then, if he follows that "Do onto others as you would wish them do onto you" thing, then is it ok if I take his?
It's way twisted there, so I guess we're back to 0. What is really wrong or right?
I think some of the basic morals were laid down way back when. Like killing, we have been raised to believe killing is wrong. Most of us accept that and follow that rule. That's the way its been for a long time.
Other things we may just be born with. Like you just know in your gut that something is wrong. Once again, most of us have basic rules we are born with. Others aren't.
Some people think something that most of us believe is wrong, is right. It might be the way they are raised. Or it could just be in their DNA, or they could just have a different mind then us.
When you come down to it, there a numerous factors to consider. I think it just comes down to a individual perspective because every person is different.
__________________
"It's sweet that I haven't lost the ability to surprise you" - House
"What I must do is all that concerns me, not what the people think"
"Speak what you think now in hard words and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict everything you said today"
I would say it all depends on the soceity you live in.
In some places, beating your woman is okay.
In some places, chopping the arm of a thief is okay.
In some places, death penalty is okay.
It has to do with many factors. Culture, religion, and many other things.
You are an atheist and I trust in God. Yet there are things that we would both agree on, and other things that would make us argue. I can't tell you that you're wrong and vice versa.
Some moral issues are probably there for us to have better lives. Like knowing that you should not kill, steal and many other things. I can't say I've ever thought much about this, because in the end morality is something very personal and each individual has his view on it.
I'm atheist as well. Funny how one of my life rules originates from Christianity. "Do onto others as you would wish them do onto you."
Like you said, it revolves around feeling. If it's feel good or "right" for me to do, then fine. Then again, this could totally backfire because, for example, if a phyco killer gets enjoyment and fulfillment from taking others lives, what stops him from taking mine? and then, if he follows that "Do onto others as you would wish them do onto you" thing, then is it ok if I take his?
It's way twisted there, so I guess we're back to 0. What is really wrong or right?
..........
If a psycho killer came into my house I'd put my sword through his face. It's a bit of a ridiculous situation to refer that to anyway isn't it? You really think a Psycho killer would really listen to "Do onto others as you would wish them do onto you."? Cmon
If you really want one to keep your morales straight, then go the old, "two eyes for an eye" one. That way, if someone annoys you, can can fuck them up twice as bad back, and they won't do it again ^^.
Sound immoral? Not really
If no one does anything to me, then I just treat people nicely (irl lol). However if someone does something pretty major against me (tries to hit me etc), then I won't sit back, give them a kiss and forgive them.
You can't go round being a saint nowadays so following christian quotes isn't gonna get you very far since most can't be applied to the fucked up, sadistic, violence filled society in what's supposed to be a peaceful civilisation.
Most of it is just common sense. I mean you wont just go out and kill someone. Pretty sure everyone knows thats wrong, but I do agree with you on some things in certain religions (including mine). I just dont get why people should go to hell if they do something wrong like having sex before getting married. We're all human for goodness sake.
If a psycho killer came into my house I'd put my sword through his face. It's a bit of a ridiculous situation to refer that to anyway isn't it? You really think a Psycho killer would really listen to "Do onto others as you would wish them do onto you."? Cmon
If you really want one to keep your morales straight, then go the old, "two eyes for an eye" one. That way, if someone annoys you, can can fuck them up twice as bad back, and they won't do it again ^^.
Sound immoral? Not really
If no one does anything to me, then I just treat people nicely (irl lol). However if someone does something pretty major against me (tries to hit me etc), then I won't sit back, give them a kiss and forgive them.
You can't go round being a saint nowadays so following christian quotes isn't gonna get you very far since most can't be applied to the fucked up, sadistic, violence filled society in what's supposed to be a peaceful civilisation.
..........
When would you even know you got a phyco killer next to you? I mean jeez, I could be standing right next to you and I might be one and you might never know. But that's not the point. The killer thing was just a wacky example, and that quote is just something I like to follow AT TIMES.
Of course if someone hits me I'm most definitely hitting back, and with a vengeance. Yeah, at times I'd like to think I'm a good person, and that maybe there's still a few "good" people out there as well, but like you said, we live in twisted society and I'm way to pessimistic to believe humanity is any good at all.
We all wish we were, but deep down we know the truth.
I will agree with Esagan that morals are not some sort of universal thing. Tons of things are acceptable in some cultures and seen as terrible in another.
Here is where I am going to disagree with the Bible (even though I am Christian, ZOMG ). I don't care what the fuck it says, you have a conscience before you become a Christian or protestant etc, etc (If you have no idea what I am talking about, go read the good book or something).
What is right and wrong came from our conscience's. I say since the beginning of time we could feel when something was wrong; thus how "moral acts" and morals themselves were born.
Somethings people call immoral though I just say is a matter of opinion as to either they are or not so, meh.
Basically I think humans have always been able to sense when something was not right, so we made laws, moral codes, etc, etc. These vary by cultures and such. Thus we began to label things as right and wrong.
EXAMPLE: For instance, someone used to think an eye for an eye was totally fair, NOW to kill a murderer you have to be:
A) Some part of a government program who go to arrest him/her and they open fire, and you can fire.
B) Just shoot them yourself and risk going to jail.
C) Let the "great" court system find the killer guilty or not.
Some would say only C would be moral (or fair). Some would say only A and C, some would say B is right.
And after typing that, it makes me wonder again if al humans have the same sense of right and wrong. Because, if we did, that above scenario of people thinking different things were moral would not happen.
So, do we all have a sense of right and wrong? And if we do, it it basically universal and the more detailed moral rights and wrongs are learned from our parents or do we all just have a different sense of right and wrong when we are born?
So, do we all have a sense of right and wrong? And if we do, it it basically universal and the more detailed moral rights and wrongs are learned from our parents or do we all just have a different sense of right and wrong when we are born?
I think we don't have any sense of right and wrong when we are born. We get this sense by learning the rules our parents teach us. Later we start to think about these rules and compare them with rules of other families/countries/cultures or just try to decide whether some seem to be logical or not. That's why morality is changing all the time from one generation to the next.
Morales are something which grow with society, and morales are not universal.
I never meant they were entirely universal. But that most ideas or morales are 'applicable' in general. Universal is something understood by 'all' but i dont think that its 'literal' in its meaning completely.
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Originally Posted by N O C T E
I
I say since the beginning of time we could feel when something was wrong; thus how "moral acts" and morals themselves were born.
Basically I think humans have always been able to sense when something was not right, so we made laws, moral codes, etc, etc. These vary by cultures and such. Thus we began to label things as right and wrong.
Okay im gona be a complete bitch here and just complicate things
But why do humans 'feel' when something is wrong? I mean where do these feelings originate from.
I'd usually offer more of a view but even if i were to debate over this for a while I'd get no where personally.
But why do humans 'feel' when something is wrong? I mean where do these feelings originate from.
It's just a fact that those feelings, or morals in general come from education.
Someone said that before and its nothing more to that,
Morals are not born. There have been such experiments in the past, where children have been isolated from the very beginning and they have been educated in a special way... a very special kind of experiment and I don't want to get too detailed here.
I just bring that up to make clear, that moral is educated, and is something, that comes NOT from within. You don't get born with moral that get's corrupted from the world.
Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misschoco
Okay im gona be a complete bitch here and just complicate things
Okay im gona be a complete bitch here and just complicate things
But why do humans 'feel' when something is wrong? I mean where do these feelings originate from.
I'd usually offer more of a view but even if i were to debate over this for a while I'd get no where personally.
Gawd, like I know. This is where my brain wants to explode.
ffs im athiest so try not to interject anything too much about God for once But why do we decide that some things are good and some are bad.As in why do we all universally assume that something is 'Good' Where did these principles develop from.I may be going of topic.But what im trying to say is where to right and wrong come from?.
Morality could come from 3 things.
1.From us:Morality comes from how we reflect or feel about things.We make things wrong or right by approving or disapproving of things according to our feelings.
2.God If God disproves of something we all go to Hell.
1) After giving much thought and consideration, this is my definition:
Moral/Morality - Priority, Values, Importance or Benefits in various degrees and personal beliefs for each and every one individual of the human race. (Limit to the human race subject to change without warning or notice).
2) God is more or less a human creation. I can certainly tell you, Christian, Buddist, Atheist, whatever you are, that you, and every other individual breathing and alive, are in control of what you do. Not your higher beings, or god, but you. If you do believe in a higher being, and say, that they're "communicating" through to you via your mind, heart, thoughts and/or feelings, *YOU* are still the one accepting and confirming, and saying or acting upon this "communication" you had with your higher being. What about the artifacts and recorded documents? Those are things left and preserved for the present from when people can comprehend and label tangible objects and conceptual ideas. There is no "proof"
that they have been left by your higher, spiritual being.
3) Choco, the things you say are totally rubbish and... er... I mean, true! It's to say the least that as long as the human race exist with a "consciousness" (and I use the term lightly since I actually do think there are certain parts of psychology that are rubbish.) that there are and will be rights and wrongs.
The problem is that morals/morality is one of the major factor or things "psychology" and "philosophy" revolves around. I find both to be unstable methods or systems of thinking only supported by half-assed evidence and proof. Without drawing out into a cumbersome rant, "psychology" is half-assed because it is mostly supported with tangible evidence through biology and chemistry, and "philosophy" is a one-sided grouping of opinions given from people who think at "a high level" and are of "superior beings".
I don't agree and operate on some of the levels that people here have expressed and believe in. For example, I, too am athiest. I will also so that morals ARE universal. This is because every single breathing and living human being are operating on morals. Now if to ask if the same morals are *shared* universally, the answer is no. That is the reason why there are differences between every countries and people, cultures and etc. That is what makes each person unique and an individual. To conform with a group of people on agreed upon rules and laws and the shared views between individuals on what is "right" or "wrong" is what makes a society. We also have labels and names for smaller groups or specific groups within society that all of us are familiar of, such as "posse", "clique", "fan club(s)", "groupies", and many more.
We do not "learn" morals from society. Learning only provides and exposes to us more options and resources to which we draw upon to take what we like and build our morals on. Morals are not something that are directly influenced from one source like "society", but more like going along with the definition I gave above, are being given informations and resources from whoever raises them in a specific and unique environment, and progressively in a seamlessly continuing chain to take what is beneficial/harmful and have the most value and holding on them/believing in them or not. It is influenced by many things, and is an intricate collage of various factors to make each and every one of the who we are now which probably has changed in some ways or will change in the near or distant future. In some sense, this could be interpretted as a "reality" to some or many people.
Some of the things I've seen posted here are not right or wrong, but understand that those are your views and one of many "morals" that exist. Of a select few, they didn't even define or answer the question of what morals/morality is in a logical or real sense, but just gave their opinions and philosophy.
Finally, to answer the last question of why we "feel" if something is wrong. Well, if there is a "wrong", then there certainly is a "right", isn't there? In the case of human beings, where we reproduce and propagate to survive and keep the human race from going extinct, we need indications of what is helping is stay alive and well, which is the "right", and the other things that threaten our vital signs as "wrong". You can say that it is what we were biologically equipped with, which in one way would be our "instinct" for the things that we act and react upon. To make a theory, our bodies have chemicals (as you all know far too well, and is especially an important factor in "psychology" such as dopamine, seratonin, adrenaline, etc. etc.) that act as an indicator to when "we should feel there is a threat to our well-being or existence". Say, for only one of many examples, that you are depressed because you broke up with your boy/girl friend. Going back to biological and instinctual patterns, in order to reproduce and keep the human race or at least your blood line perse alive, you need the opposite sex to mate with you and make a new copy, in the form of a baby to exist. In today's world we are bombarded with various media and perspectives of people, but it is for the most part agreed that having a partner and having the opportunity to reproduce is a "favorable" trait. So the opposite would mean not having a partner to mate with, and not being able to reproduce. So breaking up with someone that you "liked" means not having the "favorable" opportunities. Our bodies are equipped and set up so that, if our brains cognizes/recognizes this information or situation, then the brain or other organs of our body reacting to other chemical reaction in our brains as a result of catalysts secretes chemicals that make you feel ill as a defense mechanism, indicating that there is something "wrong". The "wrong" would be the result of breaking up and not having a current mate/partner and all the "favorable" traits that come with being human and keeping the human race alive. That would be the depression, and the "feeling" or indicator we get sometimes for our supposed "well-being" and being "right", or should I say "all right/alright"?
But wouldnt that 'Education' Have come from the feelings of whats right or wrong
Oh snap we're back to square one.
OH SHI-
Plus, we would have to know Good or Bad to know the other, so, someone would have had to have a gut feeling of which was which and label it like that, or they just labeled it out of the need for labeling.
We do not "learn" morals from society. Learning only provides and exposes to us more options and resources to which we draw upon to take what we like and build our morals on. Morals are not something that are directly influenced from one source like "society", but more like going along with the definition I gave above, are being given informations and resources from whoever raises them in a specific and unique environment, and progressively in a seamlessly continuing chain to take what is beneficial/harmful and have the most value and holding on them/believing in them or not. It is influenced by many things, and is an intricate collage of various factors to make each and every one of the who we are now which probably has changed in some ways or will change in the near or distant future. In some sense, this could be interpretted as a "reality" to some or many people.
Quote:
Finally, to answer the last question of why we "feel" if something is wrong. Well, if there is a "wrong", then there certainly is a "right", isn't there? In the case of human beings, where we reproduce and propagate to survive and keep the human race from going extinct, we need indications of what is helping is stay alive and well, which is the "right", and the other things that threaten our vital signs as "wrong". You can say that it is what we were biologically equipped with, which in one way would be our "instinct" for the things that we act and react upon. To make a theory, our bodies have chemicals (as you all know far too well, and is especially an important factor in "psychology" such as dopamine, seratonin, adrenaline, etc. etc.) that act as an indicator to when "we should feel there is a threat to our well-being or existence". Say, for only one of many examples, that you are depressed because you broke up with your boy/girl friend. Going back to biological and instinctual patterns, in order to reproduce and keep the human race or at least your blood line perse alive, you need the opposite sex to mate with you and make a new copy, in the form of a baby to exist. In today's world we are bombarded with various media and perspectives of people, but it is for the most part agreed that having a partner and having the opportunity to reproduce is a "favorable" trait. So the opposite would mean not having a partner to mate with, and not being able to reproduce. So breaking up with someone that you "liked" means not having the "favorable" opportunities. Our bodies are equipped and set up so that, if our brains cognizes/recognizes this information or situation, then the brain or other organs of our body reacting to other chemical reaction in our brains as a result of catalysts secretes chemicals that make you feel ill as a defense mechanism, indicating that there is something "wrong". The "wrong" would be the result of breaking up and not having a current mate/partner and all the "favorable" traits that come with being human and keeping the human race alive. That would be the depression, and the "feeling" or indicator we get sometimes for our supposed "well-being" and being "right", or should I say "all right/alright"?
Just my two cents.
Was a lot to digest, even if I try to avoid these kinds of debates as I always feel that its going to be long-winded and I’m always left with more unanswered questions in the end but I’m still drawn to them.
I’m intrigued so thankfully I’m not a lazy arse and still read all your views which are well developed and im thankful for some real analysis even though i may not offer it myself all the time.
This is not entirely looking at the question yet but you used the term conscience..I’ve always wondered how the conscience has developed...ANYWAYS.....
I don’t know much about psychology so I won’t touch onto that.
There’s one thing I want to highlight and that’s moral skeptism. We touched upon this on school. I tried listening but I ended up watching the seagulls outside the window. So Im only going to state what I can remember. It was about Moral scepticism I found it interestingly remotely as it states that no one has any real moral Knowledge and that moral Knowledge isn’t possible. There were also other sub discussions about the forms of moral scepticism etc.
Was a lot to digest, even if I try to avoid these kinds of debates as I always feel that its going to be long-winded and I’m always left with more unanswered questions in the end but I’m still drawn to them.
I’m intrigued so thankfully I’m not a lazy arse and still read all your views which are well developed and im thankful for some real analysis even though i may not offer it myself all the time.
This is not entirely looking at the question yet but you used the term conscience..I’ve always wondered how the conscience has developed...ANYWAYS.....
I don’t know much about psychology so I won’t touch onto that.
There’s one thing I want to highlight and that’s moral skeptism. We touched upon this on school. I tried listening but I ended up watching the seagulls outside the window. So Im only going to state what I can remember. It was about Moral scepticism I found it interestingly remotely as it states that no one has any real moral Knowledge and that moral Knowledge isn’t possible. There were also other sub discussions about the forms of moral scepticism etc.
If you're going to San Francisco, be sure to wear some flowers in your hair. If you're going to San Francisco, you're gonna to meet some gentle people there. For those who coooome to San Francisco, summertiiimme will be a lovin' there. In the streets of San Francisco, gentle people with flowers in their haiiiirrrrrr.
Right and wrong:Morality etc
If God disproves of something we all go to Hell.
It's to say the least that as long as the human race exist with a "consciousness" (and I use the term lightly since I actually do think there are certain parts of psychology that are rubbish.) that there are and will be rights and wrongs. 
