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Ok, I guess that makes sense. Orphan wanted to die but only in a certain manner. Without somebody becoming Ragnarok there would be no "sacrifice" that Orphan keeps talking about. And without "sacrifice", the maker will supposedly not return. Is that correct? Or maybe it is a combination of that AND the fact that Orphan couldn't be taken down by a normal human/fal'cie (like you said about the force field).
Thanks Petal
Yea, that's pretty much what I got. Fal'Cie can only be killed by Ragnarok and Orphans death would kill Cocoons power supply (thus bringing it down like it did in the end) which would kill all the inhabitants on Cocoon. With all that energy the "Door" to the maker would be opened. Also Fal'Cie are bound to a single purpose so they can't kill one another or themselves which was why they needed the l'Cie.
Ok, I guess that makes sense. Orphan wanted to die but only in a certain manner. Without somebody becoming Ragnarok there would be no "sacrifice" that Orphan keeps talking about. And without "sacrifice", the maker will supposedly not return. Is that correct? Or maybe it is a combination of that AND the fact that Orphan couldn't be taken down by a normal human/fal'cie (like you said about the force field).
It's a combination of "And without "sacrifice", the maker will supposedly not return" and "the fact that Orphan couldn't be taken down by a normal human/fal'cie (like you said about the force field)"
Without ragnarok no one would be strong enough to destroy orphan, and like what ghostfalcie posted that when ophan is destroyed it will kill all power supply bringing cocoon down to it's doom.
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Originally Posted by Falsate
No threat is posed if Ragnarok is officially out of the question and they continue to be in a deep slumber.
Yeah if ragnarok wasn't in the picture barthendalus would just STFU and if people weren't that afraid of pulse.
Last edited by Petalscye; Apr 14 2010 at 06:22 AM..
So just a quick and simple question for you then, do you believe Fang and Vanille will wake up in the future, or is this crystal stasis different from the others?
I don't really know much about it on whether they would wake up in their crystal slumber. If they do wake up I hope i'd still be in a younger age to play it... lol
But on your question whether it's a different kind of cystal stasis from the others? I think it's different from the other crystals since it actually saved cocoon from being destroyed, similar crystal that turned Lake bresha into one when the fal'cie anima was destroyed. Plus they turned to ragnarok before they both turned to crystal saving cocoon, So it's definitely a different crystal and prolly much stronger capable enough to stop cocoon from falling.
Last edited by Petalscye; Apr 14 2010 at 07:00 AM..
Ok, I know a lot of people say they are confused with the ending. I get it for the most part except for one thing.
When the crew gets there and realize Orphan is a naughty boy and wants to destroy Cocoon, he wants them to kill him by becoming Ragnarok. Yes? Ok.
Well.....as the scene progresses, it's almost like the script goes like this.....
Orphan - Hey punks, I need one of you to get pissed off and become Ragnarok and destroy me, kthnxbai
Party - No freakin way we are gonna do that dude, we gon' kill you with our boomerangs and fishing pole antlers!
So, with that said, what did it matter? Why did Orphan need them to become Ragnarok? Did the method of his death determine whether or not the Maker would return?
I know there are a lot of threads on the end, but every one I came across was asking why Vanille and Fang crystalized, why the others didn't, etc. etc.
What they THOUGHT was that ONLY Ragnarok can destroy Orphan. (Or so, Orphan thought) It turns out somewhere along the lines that 'if they were strong enough to destroy Cocoon, they were strong enough to save it'.
I am pretty sure the fact that they are actually L'Cies (which are stronger than normal humans and possess the power to use magic) and on top of that, from a Fal'Cie of Pulse origin means that they possess the means/power to actually HURT Orphan, even in human form. Remember, Cocoon Fal'Cie ALL have one single focus, and that is to NOT destroy or harm Cocoon. The only way for Orphan to die is by the means of Pulse L'Cies. Normal humans can't hurt him either, since they don't have magic, or crystarium - duh.
So no, HOW he dies will not affect the outcome, and I am sure the fact that they can take down Orphan in human form is probably some sort of corny SE thing regarding the "POWER OF FRIENDSHIP" and "FOLLOWING YOUR HEART!".
So no, HOW he dies will not affect the outcome, and I am sure the fact that they can take down Orphan in human form is probably some sort of corny SE thing regarding the "POWER OF FRIENDSHIP" and "FOLLOWING YOUR HEART!".
Yea, nearly right. At the end Barty or Orphan actually say (like in my sig ^^) "but your power is beyond measure." It's all to do with the fact that Fal'Cie are bound to one purpose but humans aren't. As l'Cie though they will think they are but the party decides to change their own fate. Maybe a bit corny but all covered in the story line. ^^
So no, HOW he dies will not affect the outcome, and I am sure the fact that they can take down Orphan in human form is probably some sort of corny SE thing regarding the "POWER OF FRIENDSHIP" and "FOLLOWING YOUR HEART!".
Exactly, that's one of the reasons why the characters in this particular instalment possess some distinguishable trait instead of the same "Let's bond together to destroy or subvert this powerful being despite the fact that we are ordinary humans like any other."
If you remember the vision they had, its EXACTLY the same as what happened at the ending, where Ragnarok was SAVING Cocoon.
Wouldn't it be possible that the fact that they are humans is the reason that L'Cie focus are not clear cut? As humans, they have the unique trait of free will. As humans, they can CHOOSE what to do. And by this choice, they shaped their own destiny (And thereby creating the focus) and this is what caused them to turn into crystals. Destroying Cocoon is only one interpretation of it, another could be, 'destroy Orphan, and relieve Cocoon of Fal'Cie rule.'
If you remember the vision they had, its EXACTLY the same as what happened at the ending, where Ragnarok was SAVING Cocoon.
Wouldn't it be possible that the fact that they are humans is the reason that L'Cie focus are not clear cut? As humans, they have the unique trait of free will. As humans, they can CHOOSE what to do. And by this choice, they shaped their own destiny (And thereby creating the focus) and this is what caused them to turn into crystals. Destroying Cocoon is only one interpretation of it, another could be, 'destroy Orphan, and relieve Cocoon of Fal'Cie rule.'
I dunno, just a thought. =D
As Lightning and Sazh were sayingg, empathy is trait exclusive to humans and probably plays just as big of a role.
THe game left behind more questions than it answered, also the story is very confusing (probably got something to do with half of the game being cut off).
Ok so here are the questions I have considering the ending and the story overall.
What the fuck happened near the ending scene? I thought Light and the groups became C'ieth? ALso their marks also look very different when they got revived. Snow said something about getting a new focus?
What is their focus in the first place? Is it to become ragnarok? To destroy Orphan? To destroy Coccoon?
What is Serah focus? I know Barthendalous said that she was just merely a tool to bring togheter the I'clie but then she saw the same vision as the rest of the group.
What the fuck happened to Pulse? Who became ragnarok? was it Vanille or Fang?
What was their new focus at the final boss fight? Was it to save Coccon? Or was it destroying Orphan? and why did they became a C'ieth in the first place, I mean they didn't failed their mission or anything.
THe game left behind more questions than it answered, also the story is very confusing (probably got something to do with half of the game being cut off).
Ok so here are the questions I have considering the ending and the story overall.
What the fuck happened near the ending scene? I thought Light and the groups became C'ieth? ALso their marks also look very different when they got revived. Snow said something about getting a new focus?
What is their focus in the first place? Is it to become ragnarok? To destroy Orphan? To destroy Coccoon?
What is Serah focus? I know Barthendalous said that she was just merely a tool to bring togheter the I'clie but then she saw the same vision as the rest of the group.
What the fuck happened to Pulse? Who became ragnarok? was it Vanille or Fang?
What was their new focus at the final boss fight? Was it to save Coccon? Or was it destroying Orphan? and why did they became a C'ieth in the first place, I mean they didn't failed their mission or anything.
The story is kinda a mess, really.
No its not your just slow.
1. Yes they did turn into Cieth and it is implied that the Goddess returned them to normal. As for why there brands look different who knows
2.Their Focus was to detroy Coccoon an in order to do that one of them had to turn into Ragnarok and kill Orphan. Serah's Focus was also to destroy Cocoon.
3.What the hell? Did you even watch the ending? Nothing haapened to Pulse and BOTH Vanille and Fang became Ragnarok.
4. The new Focus was to save Cocoon. It probably had something to do with Orphan he probably forcibly turned turned Lightning and CO. into Cieth in order to inflict despair on Fang.
1. Yes they did turn into Cieth and it is implied that the Goddess returned them to normal. As for why there brands look different who knows
2.Their Focus was to detroy Coccoon an in order to do that one of them had to turn into Ragnarok and kill Orphan. Serah's Focus was also to destroy Cocoon.
3.What the hell? Did you even watch the ending? Nothing haapened to Pulse and BOTH Vanille and Fang became Ragnarok.
4. The new Focus was to save Cocoon. It probably had something to do with Orphan he probably forcibly turned turned Lightning and CO. into Cieth in order to inflict despair on Fang.
No the story is a mess, seeing how this thread have 9 pages of questions and confusions about the storyline, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that doesn't follow the storyline.
1. There were NOTHING in the game that implied the Goddess turned them back to normal.
2. If Serah's focus was to destroy Coccoon? Why did she turned into Crystal earlier in the game? Clearly you don't know what you're talking about. Don't blame you though, the game wasn't clear on that.
3. I was implying about the event of the War of Transgression with this point, the game never made it clear why Pulse is in complete ruin with no signs of anyone.
4. See you're just guessing again, the game never implied their new focus, the result is pages of people guessing what happened.A game with a good story shouldn't have this much plot holes and unanswered questions in it, I don't know if they're doing it on purpose or just a proof of developer's negligent but it ain't good and probably why it wasn't praised on the story department by the critics.
Last edited by Lady_gaga; Apr 18 2010 at 06:26 AM..
Serah's focus was completely set to gather more victims to be branded as l'Cie.
Knowing anything related to Pulse isn't suppose to be present on Cocoon, it probably worried her. If that isn't the case, then she probably had the same vision revolving around Ragnarok's vehemence.
What the fuck happened near the ending scene? I thought Light and the groups became C'ieth?
Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that Sazh says after they have turned back to human 'more fal'Cie smoke and mirrors' implying they didn't really turn into Cie'th, it was only Orphan's ploy to get Vanille and Fang to turn into Ragnarok.
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ALso their marks also look very different when they got revived. Snow said something about getting a new focus?
White brand means the brand has stopped advancing. It isn't clear what triggers it. Might have something to do with free will. Snow says they saw a vision while being 'Cie'th', it isn't clear whether it was a new Focus or not.
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What is their focus in the first place? Is it to become ragnarok? To destroy Orphan? To destroy Coccoon?
The Focuses aren't as clear-cut as the fal'Cie would like you to believe. It's because the people have free will and can choose not to follow their Focus, also people seem to have the ability to set their own Focus. Anima gave the group the Focus to become Ragnarok and destroy Cocoon.
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What is Serah focus? I know Barthendalous said that she was just merely a tool to bring togheter the I'clie but then she saw the same vision as the rest of the group.
Serah's Focus was the same as the others'. She becomes crystal upon rejecting her Focus and fulfilling her 'human wish' when she tells Lightning to save the world. Barthandelus lies to the group because he doesn't want them to know people have the power to 'override' the fal'Cie given Focus with their own.
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What the fuck happened to Pulse?
Pulse civilization deteriorated because the Pulse fal'Cie went haywire and branded everyone as l'Cie. As you walk through Pulse you can see every 'urban' area is littered with Cie'th. The Cie'th Stones tell you of this. Other things that could have contributed to Pulse's dismay:
-Ragnarok attacking Cocoon 500 years ago might have damaged Pulse as well
-Cocoon fal'Cie looted Pulse after the attack on Cocoon in order to fix Cocoon
-Anima, who was apparently the 'patron' of Oerba, was moved away to Cocoon, so leaving Oerba defenceless
Thank you for clearing that up, but then again it's mostly just speculations, though it makes sense. I think the story had so much potential, it just that the way it was told was half bake.
Also in the last bit I was talking about 500 years ago, not at the ending, I guess Fang became Ragnarok herself.
I think the game should make the story clearer. Like I've never seen a FF with this much unanswered questions before, not to mention we have to look to the game Wikipedia (datalog) to keep up with the story.
It appears Fang became Ragnarok alone during the first war 500 years ago, because Vanille chickened out on it. This might be the reason she didn't manage to destroy Cocoon as the plan was, only to crack its surface (though the Pulse legend says that the Goddess turned Fang and Vanille into crystal before they could destroy Cocoon). Later Fang has a white brand and Vanille has a normal black brand. Fang kind of completed her Focus by becoming Ragnarok, which might have to do with why her brand is white.
The white brand thing is a mystery to me. The group's brands turn white after they have become human again. Maybe because that was the point they decided to set their own destiny and destroy Orphan who wanted Cocoon's destruction, not because it was their Focus, but because they wanted to give Cocoon a chance? Serah had a bandage over her l'Cie brand so we can't see if her brand was also white when she decided to go against her Focus.
Anyway, great opening post! I agree that Fang and Vanille became a much more central charecter as compared to Lightning towards the end of the game. But all of them had the same burden.
They all had the shared fate of being L'cie. And initially, they thought that being L'cie meant only one thing - to be transformed into a horrible C'ieth. They had little or no clue of their focus or even how to complete. Only Vanille had an idea, but she kept it to herself because she did not want to become Ragnarok and destroy Cacoon.
After Barthendulus (spelling?) revealed his evil plans to all. That he wanted the L'cie to become strong enough to destroy Cacoon and showed that everything that had happened till now was all to guide them on that path. They felt a sense of despair.
It must have been terrible. You had a doomed choice either way. Either you refused to do what your focus demanded, which is to destroy cacoon, or you get turned into a mindless horrible C'ieth.
We see the conflict in most of the charecters as they wrestle with this impossible decision. That's why all of them at some point despaired, and when they did, their eidolans came out and forced them to make a choice. Fight on, or give in to your fate and die. All of them choose to fight on.
At some point, they realised, especially after Raines, that while they had a focus, it didn't mean they had to follow it. And they can choose to fight their destiny imposed on them by the Fal'cie. Fang is the most vulnerable in this sense because she feels the least sense of belonging and desire to protect cacoon. Also, most importantly, Vanille is more important to her than anything else, not least cacoon, and she is willing to do anything if only to save vanille from turning into a C'ieth. She said as much. She doesn't care so much what happens to her, its Vanille she is concerned about.
So, come to the last part. The Falcie that is Bartendus wants them to kill cacoon. He has schemed, plotted, and guided them till they were "strong" enough. But they, one of them HAS to the the deed. He said so himself, they cannont unmake cacoon, which they created. Someone else has to do it by destroying Orphan.
Think of the Falcie as machines and humans as humans. Hence any Falcie lives forever, and is created with a fixed amount of power, far beyond what ordinary humans can achieve. However, though most humans are far less powerful, they have limitless potential to grow in power, and when they die, they have the opportunity to meet the maker. (Think of this like dying and goign to heaven).
The falcie are like machines, they can't die, and so, they can never ever meet their maker. And they feel an afinity to their maker because they were created by the maker. Hence, the maker is their "mother", and they want to meet their mother again. Hence, the strong desire to "want to bring the maker back".
Now, they probably don't know for sure if killing billions of people on cacoon will do the trick, but in their twisted reasoning, it might work. Also, since they can't die, if by dying, they can meet the maker, then they have to find so ways to "die"
The problem is they are "machines". So, they have probably self preservation mechanisms that prevent them from just committing suicide just like that. The maker created them to serve various functions like provide food, dig tunnels, etc, so the maker did not intend for them to "die". They were suposed to exist for eternity and provide those functions.
But since the falcie became self aware enough to ponder all this, and want to meet the maker, and to "die", or to sacrifice billions of humans so that it might possibly bring back the maker, they started to do what the maker never intended. They started to create L'cie (they were powerful enough to do so), and try and bring about the end of caccoon.
Atthe final part, ALL 6 of them were powerful enough to be transformed into Ragnaroth. They just needed to "push" one of them emotionally over the edge so that he or she would transform. So, as Barthendus is so good at doing, he hit all of them with illusions and powerful images. We didn't see the images for all 6, we just saw the illusions and images for the one most vulnerable and most likely to transform, because she had done it before. And that person was FANG!
Fang had already become Ragnaroth once, and as mentioned, she feels more towards saving Vanille than she does towards saving cacoon. So, what we see of all he rest turning into C'ieth is not what actually happened. Its what Barthendulus showed her to try and "push" her over the edge.
Thus, regret, sense of failure to save those she cared the most for (especially Vanille), despair, all combined to make her start to transform. It wasn't enough. She failed previously even as the previous Ragnaroth, and neither was she powerful enough this time to do it herself either, marred by so many conflicting emotions. Hence, the combined Barthendulus/Orphan expressed its disappointment. She was weak!
But then, this time, things were different. The others fought the illusions, refused to give in, and snapped out of it. Vanille also fought he fate strongly this time, refusing to run away. They all rallied behind Fang and drew her back from her sprial into madness. Hence the part when everyone came back suddenly and helepd to resist Orphan. And when Fang saw the rest alive and well, she snapped out of it too!
Now, they all stood together and took on Orphan. It was a surprise to Orphan, who didn't expect that. What was even more surprising was that they achieved what a solo Fang/Ragnaroth couldn't do. Together, they beat and killed Orphan! So, Orphan got its wish - to die.
The problem was that with Orphan's death, everything holding Cacoon together and up in the air failed and Cacoon was crashing towards pulse. But this time, Fang and Vanille looked at each other and decided that they had already succesfully challenged "fate" and so, they weren't going to let Cacoon and billions of people just die now.
They combined to form Ragnarok. That was probably surprising to the falcie who thought that only by pushing a powerful human L'cie beyond the brink can Ragnarok be made. But Fang had done it before. They knew what was required and they had the motivation to do so. The main difference previously was that Vanille was unwilling to became Ragnarok then just to destroy and to kill. Now, Vanille and Fang had a common goal. They both wanted to become Ragnarok together BUT they wanted to control resultant Ragnarok so that it can save cacoon.
They suceeded. Together, they formed the most powerful Ragnarok yet, but one which had a very different focus in mind, and that was to save caccoon. It punched a hole in Pulse's crust big enough for lava to flow out, plunged into the lava, and pushed it out so that it reached the falling cacoon, then they went crytal. And in their moment of crystalisation, everything, including the lava created turned into crytal as well, and that formed the supoprt that saved the falling cacoon.
So, the ending. Where everyone else is saved, and Fang and Vanille are now in crystallised sleep!
Nobody knows at this point. I think the makers of the game purposely left that part open ended. Since the game effectively "ends" at that point, how it will progress in future is up to us to speculate and also depends on whether they want to do a sequal, and if they do, which direction they want to go in the sequal.
Everything after this is just conjuncture and speculation. You can imagine a "good aternative" sequal after this about them waking up if you want. Or you can say they will stay crystallised forever if you want, and nobody would be wrong.
We will only know for sure if SE decides to come out with a sequal AND if in the sequal, they wish to feature Fang and Vanille again.
Those are two very big "if"s that must occur together for us to find out if there is any further story to Fang and Vanille.
For now though, feel free to speculate however you want. Nobody would be really right or wrong regardless.
Warning: these are just my thoughts so please don't flame unless it's necessary
There are frequently asked questions about this game. One of them is obviously about Fang and Vanille. What irritates me though are those haters that think that they're in some kind of a relationship. LOL. Keep in mind that Fang's character was originally a male, so I guess that affected a lot.
Fang and Vanille removed from crystal stasis?
It's common sense for me, how can Vanille narrate the story when she's in crystal stasis? Fang and Vanille supposed to be the main chars?
Uhm, nope. I think that all of them are equal. Others are just confused because you get to see Fang and Vanille's a lot. This is because the developers started the story with little to less background regarding these two.
Saying Vanille and Fang are removed from crystal stasis, what will happen to cocoon?
We all have different theory for this one. Mine is that nothing will happen to cocoon because it was crystallized by combining lava and water. Some of you might question me back regarding lake bresha. I believe that what happened to lake bresha was the pulse fal'cie doing and is different from what Vanille and Fang did.
White brands Barthendelus (spell check please) mentioned that one of them will be Ragnarok. Fang became THE Ragnarok thus completing part of their focus for all of them (because they share the same focus). And I believe you get white brand by completing part of your focus.
I also have a question to other fans out there
How come Fang kept her brand and Vanille didn't. Technically Vanille should have 2 brands, one on each thigh maybe?
This part has nothing to do with the post but I like to share with every fan
I know some of you are disappointed because the game is linear. From what we can get on the story, they are fugitives and it wouldn't make sense if they are able to wander around much. So it's really annoying for those who complains about the game being linear while saying that the concept of the story is good.
P.S. Did you guys notice that Snow and Serah's necklace look exactly the same as what Fang and Vanille did to Cocoon?
There's also a minor mistake on Vanille's weapon. She got it after they crashed on... i forgot... but later on the game, they showed that she already have it when they assaulted Euride. SWEET
