RPGs: Who Will Wear the Crown

[Zero Phoenix]

I'd like to avoid any SE bashing if at all possible but we know what it is. They've been fucking up. For like, a long-time.

SE is starting to lose ground while Atlus is becoming increasingly more popular with Persona RPGs, anime, manga, and now a Persona fighting game (so getting it). There was a time when there were a ton of RPG developers out there and they were pretty much overshadowed by SE, however as SE's practices fall under more scrutiny and their games decline, it's possible that a lot of these smaller RPG developers may have an opening to capitalize where SE has failed.

As we're nearing the end of this generation I want to ask, will SE still lead the way as we head into the next console generation or is it possible that another company might take the lead?

[NotitsMan]

This is actually a question that I find very interesting, and also one that makes me somewhat sad. I think it's undeniable, as you said, that S-E has been making some startling blunders. But on the flip side, I've honestly never had as much fun with a Persona game as I have with the Final Fantasy titles that I really enjoy. And, in addition, the only JRPG that's managed to grip me in an "I can't put this down" sort of way in years is, of all things, the Kingdom Hearts series.

I don't know if this is a failure on the parts of the developers, but has there been an honestly great JRPG this generation? I played the supposedly great ones. Tales of Vesperia was good, not great. Xenoblade Chronicles was good, not great. And let's not even mention such embarrassments as Infinite Undiscovery. Is that what the genre has come to? That a JRPG is labeled 'GREAT' now when it simply manages not to embarrass itself? Can the genre really not survive the transition to this generation? And is this the genre's fault, or are the developers simply inept, unable to capture that magic that made JRPGs my favorite type of game when I was younger?

At this stage in the game, I can't say I'm terribly impressed with any of the developers. All of my fondest memories come from the era of the PS2, and many of my favorite games are no longer even being developed. Right now, rather than having a company that I think will win at JRPGs, I'm just praying for one of them to no longer fail so horribly.

[Ramenzilla]

I pretty much agree with what DP said. A lot of current gen RPGs have been decent and fun in their own right, but none of them have been superb.

I can't pinpoint exactly what it is, but I don't think any eastern RPG developer has been able to capture the charm that made their PS/PS2 eras while adapting to the changing market. I do think they have a point to try new things, and they have tried new things successfully in the past...Their recent attempts haven't been leaving much of an impression *that's favorable at least* with most people though.

In the past Final Fantasy had always been seen ahead of its time. The highest production values, the best graphics, best cinematics, etc. Now other developers have essentially caught up and surpassed them in that respect and it's not a big deal anymore.

While it's difficult to quantify in any capacity, I think consumer preferences evolve too. New/younger gamers who grew up with games having stunning visuals and time to refine their gameplay mechanics might not enjoy an older iteration of Halo or the sprite charm of older FFs. I'm sure many still do, but likewise I'm sure many don't either. Maybe jRPGs as we know them can't thrive in today's market. They worked well at the right time with the right mechanics. *shrug* Maybe they need to do something completely different to survive and they haven't found what it is quite yet.

This is also why I think a lot of people latched onto Versus. The scale of the game looks grandiose in almost ever respect: the environments we've seen, the enemies, the architecture, everything (classic FF markers pushing the envelope) but the combat is action oriented and more digestible/marketable to today's clientele.

[Zero Phoenix]

Warning. Warning. WALLS of text.

Originally Posted by Death Penalty

This is actually a question that I find very interesting, and also one that makes me somewhat sad. I think it's undeniable, as you said, that S-E has been making some startling blunders. But on the flip side, I've honestly never had as much fun with a Persona game as I have with the Final Fantasy titles that I really enjoy. And, in addition, the only JRPG that's managed to grip me in an "I can't put this down" sort of way in years is, of all things, the Kingdom Hearts series.

Two things here. I agree with you in that I've never had "that moment" with Persona like I did with Final Fantasy, but for me that's with regards to the classic Pre-PS2 Final Fantasies. When I played Persona 3 I had a much greater time than I did with FFX. And I had more fun with Persona 4 than I did with XIII and XIII-2 even with the frustration. But in that regard I would argue that Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts 2 gave me more bang and more emotional return than FFX, FFXII, and those Persona games. When I play Persona I'm like, oh OK this is fun, but apart from laughing here and there I don't get much of an emotional return. And with FFX I hated the entire cast, and while I liked Vaan, Ashe, and Penelo in FFXII the game took certain directions that I found to be lacking and I connected more deeply with Vayne and the Judges than I did with Ashe and company. The last time I truly connected with FF heroes was FFIX and that was a long, long time ago. KH on the otherhand, man damn those games hit me hard.

Originally Posted by Death Penalty

I don't know if this is a failure on the parts of the developers, but has there been an honestly great JRPG this generation?

Hmmmmm, I'm really not sure what to say that. Not knocking you I just don't know what to say. In a way it is the fault of the publishers rather than the developers. GI did a write-up a couple months ago where they talked to developers about what fucks up their games and a lot of time it's publishers and even retailers. Believe it or not, companies like Gamestop actually have a say in how games are made. Distributors tell publishers what sell and publishers use that information to dictate to developers how a game is made. The dev team could be doing a damn good job with a stand alone action title but if a publisher says, well we want to have this new Spider-Man or Batman game come out as the same-time as the movie, and if the movie comes out in four months but the game needs a year to even be playtested you can bet your ass that game better come out in time for the movie regardless. It's true some dev teams are lazy as shit (Ninja Theory) but you have to look at the ones that aren't (Team Ico). In addition, you have to look at corporate fuck-ups. Under Hironobu Sakaguchi we got FFVII, FFVIII, FFIX, FFT, and a shitload of remakes, along with a SHITLOAD of other Square RPGs in the lifespan of the PS. And I mean the PS ONE!! Now look at the shit we got this generation in a Square without Sakaguchi. Not a damn thing. While it's true that cost has increased I can argue cost is relative. Games always cost a shitload of money to make but some publishers can do a lot with a little. Look at the team that did Borderlands.

Originally Posted by Death Penalty

Is that what the genre has come to? That a JRPG is labeled 'GREAT' now when it simply manages not to embarrass itself? Can the genre really not survive the transition to this generation? And is this the genre's fault, or are the developers simply inept, unable to capture that magic that made JRPGs my favorite type of game when I was younger?

That's a very complicated question. Here's the thing at least from my pov. Atlus puts out some fucking AWESOME RPGs. Unless I'm mistaken they have the rights to Growlanser. I could be wrong but the JRPG isn't dead in a since because let me assure you, you buy any title from the Growlanser series and you have a damn good time. However, I have no rebuttal because in terms of what's actually good, some of the best games out there are games they came out like, years ago and are just being remade. I think that the industry as a whole, for the most part has gotten lazy and desperate and this too has complications. The Japanese industry is dying. A lot of developers agree and Kojima was very blunt in that, "The Japanese need to catch up with the west or the industry is going to die. Plain and simple." He said this in an interview in GI. This is Hideo Kojima. The Gaming..................... GOD!!! And when he says some shit like that people listen. So eastern developers are just trying to emulate what the west is doing because they sort of have to if they want to survive. Westerners like that same, tired, dumb SHIT. Madden, Halo, all that dumb shit. And they need games that are easy to pick up and play for the casual gamer. So on that hand developers need to make what appeals to the casual audience. With that said, as long as something sells they don't need to innovate. They just need to Ubisoft or EA their games, i.e., make the same shit.

Originally Posted by Death Penalty

At this stage in the game, I can't say I'm terribly impressed with any of the developers. All of my fondest memories come from the era of the PS2, and many of my favorite games are no longer even being developed. Right now, rather than having a company that I think will win at JRPGs, I'm just praying for one of them to no longer fail so horribly.

On this we agree.

[Zero Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Ramenzilla

I pretty much agree with what DP said. A lot of current gen RPGs have been decent and fun in their own right, but none of them have been superb.

I miss Sakaguchi-sama.

Originally Posted by Ramenzilla

I can't pinpoint exactly what it is, but I don't think any eastern RPG developer has been able to capture the charm that made their PS/PS2 eras while adapting to the changing market. I do think they have a point to try new things, and they have tried new things successfully in the past...Their recent attempts haven't been leaving much of an impression *that's favorable at least* with most people though.

THAT's what I don't get. The reason why PS/PS2 RPGs were so successful is because they did their own thing. They didn't try to be other genres, they rarely blended other genres. Even Vagrant Story and Parasite Eve, while yes they blended some elements of action games were still very much in touch with their rpg nature. What made the PS era FFs outstanding is that they were, well shit outstanding. It seems to me that while it is true that east needed to adopt the ways of the west, rpgs should have stayed the same because it was that uniqueness that made them fun to play. Whenever a JRPG comes around and tries to do something different, they fuck up and end up being terrible. Further confusing publishers and gamers as saying that, well the JRPG needs to change when it's the changes that are killing them. Didn't mean to laugh. That shits not funny.

Originally Posted by Ramenzilla

In the past Final Fantasy had always been seen ahead of its time. The highest production values, the best graphics, best cinematics, etc. Now other developers have essentially caught up and surpassed them in that respect and it's not a big deal anymore.

In what way though? I would argue that SE is still the best company in terms of all the pretty shit like production, graphics, and all that but yeah in terms of story the competition has definitely caught up. This, I feel is because of two factors. 1) As with the whole east vs west bullshit, SE realized that western gamers don't just love pretty pictures, they would have sex with pretty pictures. So every FF from X to present has just been SE giving us scenary porn and more CG than well, anything I can think of. And sure enough western gamers love pretty pictures and so SE has only focused development in one major area while neglecting others. Secondly, I really do think a lot of this has to do with Sakaguchi's departure because let me tell you my friend, he would never, ever have let this shit happen on his watch.

Originally Posted by Ramenzilla

While it's difficult to quantify in any capacity, I think consumer preferences evolve too. New/younger gamers who grew up with games having stunning visuals and time to refine their gameplay mechanics might not enjoy an older iteration of Halo or the sprite charm of older FFs. I'm sure many still do, but likewise I'm sure many don't either. Maybe jRPGs as we know them can't thrive in today's market. They worked well at the right time with the right mechanics. *shrug* Maybe they need to do something completely different to survive and they haven't found what it is quite yet.

Originally Posted by Ramenzilla

This is also why I think a lot of people latched onto Versus. The scale of the game looks grandiose in almost ever respect: the environments we've seen, the enemies, the architecture, everything (classic FF markers pushing the envelope) but the combat is action oriented and more digestible/marketable to today's clientele.

Interesting idea you have there. On my end I've been a faithful customer of Square since 1990 so Versus XIII was no brainer as soon as I heard the title. But when I saw those first trailers I was in awe because the tone was dark as hell and I thought that we were going to see FF taken to an area it's never been. Then after playing XIII, XIII-2, and having to deal with these delays may faith in the company and Versus XIII as a product have waned. Greatly. However, IF, IF Vesus XIII does come out and IF it was worth the seven years it spent in development hell I truly, honestly believe it can change everything.