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Hey there!
Since its pretty late over here and i have to get out early, i have to say sorry for not reading the big Endingdiscussion-thread yet, but i wanted to share my thoughts before i forget 'em. (also, my apologies for my somewhat lacking english, and the fact that i barely introduced myself, again, time.. flows without pause, sadly. *caughcaugh*.. but you guys are bookmarked on my Smartphone for tommorow, finally found a site that is heavilly based around the FF Franchise lol! awesome. really.)
Topic:
So yeah, the thread indicates it, and i wonder what other people who played the game may think about it... to get it out of the way; if you think its complete garbage, feel free to say so, but (after a long string of titles in the franchise, this one finally makes me think again!..) i think the last time i was that excited for post-game stuff, was when those Ultimecia = Rinoa rumors did spread.
Okay, many times throughout the Game, the following is beeing said: "If you change the future, you change the past." .. it didnt make much sense to me, (maybe i just missed something, tell me if so!) so i tried to view the whole thing from another angle... and Caius' line of (played a non-english version, so i cant give a real quote right now, but i think you'll now what i mean) "Destiny is set, the cycle will repeat itself" did strenghten my "Circle" theory. So, if we forget about how we think of time, something flowing forward, but rather something, a whole, that may repeat or eventually flow into itself, you would definetly change the past by changing the future, because the definition of both would be compleeetely different. (they wouldnt really exist, me guesses.) And if so, the ending would be somewhat final - whatever happens after the "To be continued" Screen, it would eventually start all over again as it was, and end the same way - with Walhalla.
(Which shouldnt be considered a Place where.. "time".. doenst flow, its just the center of everything - we all know by know how Caius trolled the entire game i think)
when i came that far with my theory, i remembered "Oh!.. there are paradoxes, alternative timelines, and so on.. was i completely off the tracks here? what was i thinking?!".... but i might have an explanation that even strengthens all of the stuff posted above:
Caius also travels through time, and Yeul is watching them. Caius also said he 'Corrects the timeline', meaning that - no matter which paradoxes Noel and Serah may resolve (or, maybe resolving them is actually keeping the .. *caugh*.. Time.. from beeing changed! so they'd play into Caius' hands), Caius could easilly reverse their efforts, without em noticing., eventually leaing to the same outcome.
Still, Paradoxes exist, and i imagine them as something that leaps out or into the whole Picture (or: Circle) of Time, but as i said, they might be handled in a way that does not affect the outcome of the games story.
finally, the hidden ending theme: i dont think Caius asked Yeul to live hapilly ever after when saying 'Yeul, shall we?', i rather think that everything is about to start all over again, and they make their way to the point where only Noel and a few others are still alive.
... okay, thats about it. i hope you get what i am aiming for, again, i am bad with explaining things in english, so it might sound just pretty weird (maybe it does either way), but yeah, those are my thoughts about the Story in FFXIII-2, please, feel free to comment.
A lot of this has already been discussed in the Endings thread, but I figured I'd give a shot at explaining the "If you change the future, you change the past" quote. What this is referring to is paradoxes specifically, and the effects they have throughout time. For my first example, Yaschas Massif 010AF, Oerba 200AF, and Yaschas Massif 01XAF.
In Yaschas Massif 010, the fal'Cie Fenrir has appeared to cover the entire area in complete darkness. It blocks out moonlight, sunlight, even a portion of the light from Cocoon. (Which is reflect moonlight probably, but whatever) You discover that Fenrir is supposed to appear about 190 years later, that being the time period of 200AF. Fenrir's presence in 010 is part of a paradox effect, as it's only casting darkness over the Massif rather than the whole world.
You go to Oerba 200AF next, and judging by the lighting you must be sometime just before Fenrir shows up. Oerba is almost entirely consumed by spacetime anomolies, and as far as we can see the Void Beyond is just popping up everywhere. This is the most likely cause of the Massif's troubles; The shadow and image of Fenrir bleed through the Void Beyond and back through time, eventually bursting out into Yaschas. You solve all of the anomalies, returning Oerba to normal.
Going back to Yaschas Massif (from the character's point of view, not a player's) sees the whole world changed as a result. With the anomalies in Oerba fixed, Fenrir's shadow was never projected onto the past. With that darkness not being there, Hope and his team didn't go to investigate it, and they didn't meet Noel and Serah for their conversation about the eclipse. Time rewrote itself to make sense, erasing the encounter from the memories of those who were still living through time normally. In this way, changing the future changes the past.
Please note that the other time you create an X-time, that being 4XX, it is ALSO a case of solving a paradox that stretches backwards into the past as well as being in the "future" that is 400AF. Does that help?
I think a thread discussing the concept of time and how it pertains to the game is completely legit and shouldn't be limited just to the endings thread. It just happens to overlap sometimes.
I still need to finish the game to really "get" what's going on. I'll either rerent or borrow it from someone if need be.
Hm. That cycle theory definitely has some merit. I never thought about it and it's very insightful. It could even further explain Caius' desire to end time as we know it; an endless cycle of death and rebirth, much like Yeul's smaller one, sounds like just the sort of thing he'd hate.
I find that describing and discussing the nature of time in FFXIII-2 is somewhat futile, as the two cases are either 'S-E knows jack shit about it and makes it up as they go along' or 'S-E has it completely under control and have reasonable explanations for everything'. I find the former to be the more likely. XIII-2 goes way way out of its way to explain every little dumb thing to a player that already knows it. I think time works exactly as they say it does, and that the inconsistencies are a failure on their part. The only way that I see the past affecting the future working is if a paradox is a single timeless event that can be completely removed from all time it touches by solving it in any instant it appears at all. Barring your nice cycle theory being true, of course.
Can someone kindly explain here how the theory of cycle works in the story? I know there was a thread made about this question but I didn't quite understand what the OP meant. I.. kind of grasp the main idea, but I'm still a bit confused about it.
Can someone kindly explain here how the theory of cycle works in the story? I know there was a thread made about this question but I didn't quite understand what the OP meant. I.. kind of grasp the main idea, but I'm still a bit confused about it.
made this Picture using Paint
hopefully it helps somehow.
edit: meaning that 'if you change the future, you change the past" simply becomes a "if you change the past, you change the future", since the future is nothing more than the past of the past, while it is also the future of the past.... x)
For the sake of explanation: you could also just say that time (future and past) both work in both ways.
(There couldnt be a definitive Past/Future thing aswell, everything could be "the Present".. but i dont want to make this even more complicated for now.)
@Death Penalty:
Come to think of it, The followup to Academia 4XX is Academia 500.. shouldnt it be Academia 5XX instead? So yeah, the case could be that Square just had some.. paradoxes going on in their heads. xD but well, i like thinking about all the possible ways to approach the Storyline (and what may happen after the credits rolled in), so.. i dont blame em, as long as they keep acting like everything is planned out well. *lol*
Last edited by Crystalchild; Feb 28 2012 at 10:05 AM..
Thank you for taking the time of making that. I do get it, yes, that is exactly how I thought of the cycle theory. I just... something's bothering me, and I just can't pinpoint what exactly it is.
Is "Time" to be defined as a "Circle"?
