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View Full Version : FFXII is perfect as Square's experiment in Single-Player MMO Offline Simulation Mode


Kuja Las Vegas
Sep 24 2009, 12:45 AM
The following conversation was overheard at Square Enix headquarters as they were brainstorming prior to the development of Final Fantasy XII. ;)

Yoichi Wada, President Square Enix: "We need more money. Let's make a game starring Yuffie and Red XIII."
Hiroshi Minagawa, Game Designer: "Here's a crazy thought. How about we make a different game than one that is based off Final Fantasy VII?"
<Wada spits out the coffee he was drinking. Takes out a gun and shoots Minagawa>
Wada: "Matsuno, you're the new Lead Game Designer."
Yasumi Matsuno, Game Designer: (nervously) "Okay...."
Wada: "How will YOU design the next installment of the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII, and also please me to avoid getting 'downsized' by my deagle?"
Matsuno: "Here's a crazy thought..."
Wada: <cocks gun>
Matsuno: "Now, now...bear with me here. BEAR WITH ME."
W.: "I'm listening..."
M.: "Okay. So we released Final Fantasy X in 2001. It was a very linear game, perhaps the most linear game thus far. It was very character-driven and storyline-oriented. You could say it was almost 90% story and 10% battle."
W.: "Yes, and that was a good game. Very popular. It created a golden age of RPGs for the PS2."
M.: "Next, we released Final Fantasy XI online. It was our first ever MMO. We created a new Real Time Battle system (RTB), and a massive world with huge outdoor areas. However, not everybody was able to play the game, because it required a willing adult with a credit card and $12 a month to spare for their bratty kid who should have been doing homework instead of playing stupid video games."
W.: "Yes, it's a shame not that many people were able to get into Final Fantasy XI when it was first released, either because their computer was too shitty to run it, or they couldn't afford to buy the HDD expansion for the PS2, or their stupid mom and dad wouldn't pay $12 a month for a subscription."
M.: "What if, now please bear with me here, what if...the next Final Fantasy game we created was an "MMO Offline Simulation Mode" experience for the single-player who was unable to experience FFXI?"
W.: "What the hell are you smoking? I oughta shoot you right now. I should just shoot you anyways, since you're not talking about a theoretical new Compilation game like I told you to."
M.: "Well no, think about it for a minute. You take the RTB combat engine, modify it and tweak it a little bit to make it fun for the single-player. We'll call it 'ADB' or Active Dimension Battle. Combat will take place seamlessly and in ATB-oriented real time directly on the overworld map instead of teleporting to a different battle screen a la random battles as in the past, so it will be similar to an MMO.
W.: "Yes, go on..."
M.: "Because it will be an experiment in MMO simulation for the single-player, we'll have to make it 90% battles and 10% story, i.e. the opposite of FFX. It can't be linear like FFX. In fact, it has to be non-linear. Very non-linear. Like, all the outdoor areas and dungeons have to be connected somehow. We'll have to create a massive world, though not as massive as Final Fantasy XI."
W.: "Hmm. Intriguing."
M.: "Because MMOs are never-ending, and FFXII has to have an eventual end, we'll have to make the Final Boss sequence different. In previous Final Fantasies, we had the player go through a huge final dungeon to reach the final boss. However, due to the open-ended nature of our MMO simluation, we will want the player to be able to continue on and do quests and hunts if they still want to."
W.: "So how about we create a huge semi-final dungeon, the Pharos at Ridorana, and then give the player the option to travel to the Bahamut whenever they want at that point? So they can travel to the Bahamut and end their MMO simulation experience, or they can continue from that savegame and keep doing quests and hunts."
M.: "That's a good idea Mr. President. And since it's an MMO simulation, we'll have to make the story political in nature. We won't be able to achieve the same high level of character-driven plot and character interaction as seen in previous FFs. How about we create a political villain too, like Vayne Solidor? And instead of taking the clear cut route like totally good or totally evil, we'll have shades of gray. No one will be quite totally evil or totally good, they'll all be working for their own political aspirations and machinations."
W.: "Sounds good. We already committed to our first ever sequel experiment, FFX-2. Why not another experiment? We can also go back to Final Fantasy's roots when Final Fantasy XIII is released. I have a fear though, that we might alienate some veterans with our radical departure from turn-based battle. And some people might be put off by the political nature of the story."
M.: "To hell with them. We're Square Enix and we do what we want. Who cares what some non-Japanese Western infidel eighth grader thinks, who is too stupid to understand the political story anyhow?"
W.: "Fine I'll sign off on this game, as long as there's a bow in the game named after me, the Yoichi Bow. And it better be top tier too."
M.: "You got it."

Obviously I just made the entire conversation up, but you get where I'm going with this, right? Somewhere down the line they had a conversation just like that. They decided to make FFXII their experiment.

If you hate FFXII, you're entitled to your own opinion. I'm not trying to change it, I'm just trying to tell you what I think they did with this game, and why it is so different from the time-honored, time-tested, tried-and-true formulaic methods of Final Fantasy development.

And it doesn't matter what you or I think, all that matters is that FFXII made sales and $$$ for Square Enix, so they could develop something that will possibly be even better, like Final Fantasy XIII.


Final Fantasy XII sold more than 1,764,000 copies in its first week in Japan, almost equaling the sales of Final Fantasy X (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_X) in its first week.[112] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FFXII#cite_note-111) The total number of copies sold stood over 2,150,000 after five weeks of release.[113] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FFXII#cite_note-112) A Square Enix conference report stated that Final Fantasy XII sold more than 2.38 million copies in Japan in the two weeks since its March 16, 2006 release,[114] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FFXII#cite_note-113) In North America, Final Fantasy XII shipped approximately 1.5 million copies in its first week.[115] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FFXII#cite_note-114) As of March 2007, the game has shipped over 5.2 million copies worldwide.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FFXII#cite_note-sqex07profile-0) It is the fourth best-selling PlayStation 2 game of 2006 worldwide.[116] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FFXII#cite_note-115)

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FFXII)

There, I think I'm done defending FFXII for the moment.

Saki Liu
Sep 24 2009, 12:51 AM
I quit reading after Yochi Wada's sentence.

R. Daneel Olivaw
Sep 24 2009, 12:56 AM
I remember something similar to this being posted on a forum I used to frequent ages ago. It was funnier back then when it was still fresh.

Kuja Las Vegas
Sep 24 2009, 01:07 AM
Read the whole thing goddamit. The first sentence is a joke yes, but the rest of it is my serious defense of FFXII.

Settsuo
Sep 24 2009, 01:36 AM
Me+Wall of Text=-_-

Its may have solid defense of FFXII, but you cant change peoples opinions to fit your own. I for one liked it, but others who didn't... didn't. So... yea... :dance:Evil Bunnies:dance: FTW!

finalmattasy
Sep 24 2009, 01:46 AM
Correction, FFXII is perfect.

R. Daneel Olivaw
Sep 24 2009, 01:49 AM
It's really not. If it were perfect then everyone would love it, and everyone would have it as their number one game. As such a game can never, ever be perfect. :awesome:

Settsuo
Sep 24 2009, 01:55 AM
It's really not. If it were perfect then everyone would love it, and everyone would have it as their number one game. As such a game can never, ever be perfect. :awesome:

True, oh so very true... sort of...

Ramenzilla
Sep 24 2009, 02:19 AM
It's really not. If it were perfect then everyone would love it, and everyone would have it as their number one game. As such a game can never, ever be perfect. :awesome:

no game will EVER be perfect, there are going to be fans of the final fantasy franchise who will HATE XIII and others who will love it, etc.
at least final fantasies try something new in terms of story telling and gameplay with each game...while retaining some themes across all of them -- so that fans will find a game that eventually pleases them :)

anyway, in terms of an offline mode...it would be more difficult to execute than with say, a tales game because then each player would need their own command menu and it takes up enough space in the single player anyway...in which case it would make more sense to do that online, but what games has an online mode without a corresponding offline option? that would be weird! so I doubt this "new mode" is online/offline co-op, but who knows!
it could be like a trance mode? since lightning can do that finger snappy thing and be surrounded by glowing stuff. or limit breaks...but I still don't think they'll have them since the summons are so powerful and each character has one.

Nex
Sep 24 2009, 02:36 AM
Not really. FF10, 11 and 12 were all supposed to be MMORPGs. They didn't have the system working in time for 10, they made 11 a MMORPG and after a period of 12's development they decided they would go back to singleplayer.

So no, FF12 wasn't an MMO single player simulation. They started as a MMORPG and when it changed kept certain aspects. The end product was far more similar to a normal FF than a MMORPG, I think it's an INSULT to call it an MMO simulation.

Also, the FF7 compilation didn't begin until years after 12 started development. And the Yoichi bow wasn't named after Wada, it's a famous mythological bow.

I don't agree at all with your theory that Bahamut was the final dungeon to fit with an MMO. EVERY FF has huge side quests you can do after you finish the game. In FFX you could save right before the final boss and then warp out of the dungeon, no different to 12.

12's combat was NOT real time, it was an ATB system with free movement. It's no more real time than FF4. The whole point of the ATB system is that it's both turnbased and real time. 12's combat wasn't a radical departure, if you knew what you were doing.

FFX was not "90% story, 10% gameplay", and they DEFINITELY never had a conversation where they decided 12 would be the opposite. FF10 was certainly more linear than most FFs, to create a cinematic experience. But it was technically about 40% story 60% gameplay. And yes, that's an accurate ratio. Cutscene length was less than 20 hours. Even KH2 didn't have it above 50:50.

FF12's overall cutscene length was about 10 hours. Much shorter than FFX, but not that short. And in an intereview shortly before the American release of FF12 a member of the development team actually said they weren't entirely happy with the story, they wished they had done more.

What actually happened-

-FF12 began production by Matsuno's team in the early 2000's. The idea was to create a MMORPG FF based in Ivalice (the world Matsuno had spent a lot of his life designing).

-Likely during pre-development it was decided that the game would be a normal JRPG. Rather than throwing out their ideas, the development team adapted their MMORPG ideas the normal ATB style of FFs.

-About half way through development Matsuno was forced from the project by medical/personal reasons. The development team wanted to respect Matsuno's ideas as they continued development. They used a huge book full of Matsuno's notes on Ivalice to create the world and continue the story (though it was likely because of this that the second half of the story contained so little cutscenes).

-Because of Matsuno's departure, the game was delayed by two years to complete certain aspects of the game. Other aspects, the development team admitted, might have been overdone (huge dungeons, rare monsters, etc).

Kuja Las Vegas
Sep 24 2009, 05:57 AM
I don't agree at all with your theory that Bahamut was the final dungeon to fit with an MMO.

But you must admit that technically, Bahamut is the so-called "final dungeon," albeit with no point of return. Bahamut is really short, it's just a few rooms then the elevator to Vayne, and I believe you're supposed to just run through it because the guards keep coming infinitely.

Because Bahamut is the point of no return, Pharos is the true final dungeon, being the longest and hardest of them.

But thanks for your input, it was nice to know what actually happened. What source do you cite for your information?

What accurate ratio of gameplay to story would you say FFXII was? 25% Story and 75% Gameplay?


-Likely during pre-development it was decided that the game would be a normal JRPG. Rather than throwing out their ideas, the development team adapted their MMORPG ideas the normal ATB style of FFs.


But didn't you get the vibe that FFXII played sort of like an MMO, if they had taken an MMO and made it into single-player? Being able to fight directly on the overworld, with massive sprawling areas of Ivalice, is reminiscent of an MMO. In most Final Fantasies 90% of the enemies on the entire surface of the world map are weakasses. The real hard enemies live in the dungeons. Ivalice is certainly different. If you're Level 15 and you go into Nabreus, expect to die a lot.

Naunen
Sep 24 2009, 06:07 AM
Why are you so obsessed with a game that's come out long ago in our time?

Whiplash
Sep 24 2009, 09:31 AM
I think you're all missing the major issue here. The OP clearly promised just a few days ago that he was going to bugger off. I'm going to sue.

Falsate
Sep 24 2009, 09:51 AM
I always felt Crystal Chronicles and My Life as a [insert wild card] were experiments. Then after, they'd take the lements actually adored by the fans and pack them into the next main installment.

All those side games are experiments, but a main installment being one itself? Ehhhddgeeee

spirawase
Oct 02 2009, 08:57 PM
Not really. FF10, 11 and 12 were all supposed to be MMORPGs. They didn't have the system working in time for 10, they made 11 a MMORPG and after a period of 12's development they decided they would go back to singleplayer.

Entirely untrue. Only 11 was supposed to be an MMORPG. 10 was supposed to have some online capabilities (connect to PlayOnline for strategy guide crap) but it was scrapped.

12 had all along been meant to be an offline title. MMORPGs happen to have a lot of longevity and take a long time to develop. You don't just develop 2 of them back to back like that, especially not when the first one is still doing so well.

For the record, SE never needed to release XII to make money, because it was making far more money off the subscriptions from XI alone. MMORPGs are huge money-making units, like casinos, generating a steady flow of income month by month. To date, its revenue tops every other Final Fantasy, if only by virtue of its genre.

Also, when you have this much story and multiple-character involvement in XII, , its just impossible for it to becomes an MMORPG. If you've not played XI, you should play it and you'll understand what i mean.

Besides, the only SE team to work on an MMORPG-based project was the FFXI team, which also developed XIV.

Other than that, i think I agree with you on the other points.