You have no feelings!! (Spoilers for KHII) [Archive]

Death Penalty

Sep 16 2009, 05:57 PM

Erm, did anyone think that Sora was maybe a little out of line with the Nobodies at times? It was almost chuckle-worthy how harsh he was with them at times, often shouting that they had no hearts just before he killed them. It was almost racism, I tells ya! Er... Or... Whatever Nobodies are. Not exactly a race.

Yet this no emotions thing can't really be true, can it? On several occasions, Organization XIII members displayed clear emotions. Anger, regret, fear, dismay. Now it's explained that Nobodies often mimic human emotions as part of a lie, but why on earth would Vexen be mimicking fear of dying? Why would Saix use his last breath to lament his lack of a heart? Why, most importantly, would Axel sacrifice himself? It struck me as funny that so soon after that gesture, Sora loudly declares Xehanort to stop talking to him, as he has no heart and no emotions, so that Sora can put an end to him.

Angry little guy, huh?

Ixion

Sep 16 2009, 06:11 PM

Why, most importantly, would Axel sacrifice himself? It struck me as funny that so soon after that gesture, Sora loudly declares Xehanort to stop talking to him, as he has no heart and no emotions, so that Sora can put an end to him.

Angry little guy, huh?
Maybe, since Axel was effected by Sora's heart as being similar to Roxas, he wanted to aid him in reaching The World that Never Was. As to why he "blew himself up for it," a little unclear. Perhaps he's like Cosmos (Dissidia) in wanting to find an end to a cycle by dying, like how Axel, like all nobodies, wants a heart through Kingdom Hearts. But since he had achieved at least the felling of a heart through Sora, he doesn't need to go on in an empty existence anymore and decides to die for Sora's sake. I still think he could have lived on with that HEARTFELT feeling he has instead of ending himself.

To me, it seems that Nobodies are more "Heartless" than Heartless are...;)

Death Penalty

Sep 16 2009, 06:17 PM

Maybe, since Axel was effected by Sora's heart as being similar to Roxas, he wanted to aid him in reaching The World that Never Was. As to why he "blew himself up for it," a little unclear. Perhaps he's like Cosmos (Dissidia) in wanting to find an end to a cycle by dying, like how Axel, like all nobodies, wants a heart through Kingdom Hearts. But since he had achieved at least the felling of a heart through Sora, he doesn't need to go on in an empty existence anymore and decides to die for Sora's sake. I still think he could have lived on with that HEARTFELT feeling he has instead of ending himself.

To me, it seems that Nobodies are more "Heartless" than Heartless are...;)

I'm pretty sure the implication with Axel blowing himself up was no suicide, but that there were far too many Nobodies for them all to deal with normally. That being the case, using such an enormous attack (apparently sapping himself of vitality in the process) was the course he chose to defeat them and allow Sora to continue. But Sora being all hearty and full of light could have had something to do with Axel's feelings.

Little Miss Scarlett

Sep 16 2009, 06:20 PM

Yeah I have to agree with you there, he was downright mean. There was really no need to be so arrogant.

And I could get into the idea that if you continuously mimic emotions then eventually you're not pretending anymore, but I'll spare you. Plus if they really were incapable of emotion, then I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want hearts to begin with.

Death Penalty

Sep 16 2009, 06:24 PM

Plus if they really were incapable of emotion, then I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want hearts to begin with.

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

Moklin

Sep 16 2009, 07:05 PM

In fact i never see Organization XIII doing something bad. Sora didnt just kill them, it was an overkill. They never represented a threat to the player. KH2 plot sucked in so many ways. Organiztion XIII menbers were underdeloped.

Glacies

Sep 16 2009, 08:37 PM

KH2 plot sucked in so many ways.
It really really did.
As soon as a story makes an attempt on a character without emotions it fails hard, as an actual character without emotions wouldn't give a shit about anything and just lay somewhere for a good 3 days and than die out of dehydration.

Emotions is what drives us to do what we do, without them we'd do nothing, at all.

Ramenzilla

Sep 17 2009, 12:12 AM

I didn't really enjoy the KHII as much as the first one, like first of all -- little mermaid sing along.....yeah, AWFUL.

but a big part of it was how stupid Sora was, basically if he saw an organization XIII member, he was like "I'M GONNA KILL YOU" and they were practically begging for their lives [ok, not really...but most of the battles were unprovoked?] like it didn't seem like he gave any thought to outing them, so yeah. he was a jerk!
that being said, a lot of the organization xiii memebers were really underdeveloped and reduced to being enemies you just thwart basically [except for axel, who was portrayed more sympathetically] but either way, they didn't come off as that evil, lol.

rise007

Sep 17 2009, 12:39 AM

Because they want to have emotions. They know that they don't have any beacuse they don't have hearts, which is where emotion comes from. But they act like they have them just because they want them so bad. And they're so desperate they've been able to develop such a good act of emotions. It's not really a lie per se, it's almost like their minds sort of went looney and they thought they had emotions but knew they didn't. And so they acted like they did.

Yeah I was mad with Sora too, I loved the Nobodies, they were so sad! I was so sad at the end when Kingdom Hearts was destroyed (right?) and then the hearts started falling into all the other worlds and I was like "hey, now the Nobodies can have their own hearts!" I thought the Nobodies would "eat" the hearts and turn back into real people but sadly that didn't happen. I was especially empathetic and sad for Xemnas. I kept asking myself, do I have to fight him? I was mad at Sora but then I realized- it was Square Enix who made the script! So technically, they're the racist ones, lol.

Death Penalty

Sep 17 2009, 12:43 AM

Ethan

Sep 17 2009, 02:37 AM

Death Penalty

Sep 17 2009, 02:48 AM

Nobody's had hearts, they had emotions, they had feelings. What makes the Nobodies in Organization XIII special, is that they remember what it was like. They act as if they have emotions because they remember them. They understand something was meant to be funny, then proceed to laugh, and then think "Why did I laugh?". They don't really know any other way to act. The condition of being a Nobody is much deeper than just being emotionless. I believe there is a difference between emotions and pure drive. I think it is the fact that they remember what it was like to be whole is what drives them to become whole once more. In most cases this drive is so strong, it makes the Nobodies do crazy things, obviously not caring what happens to anyone else. Sora doesn't completely understand this and takes almost everything that Organization XIII is doing in a negative context. To some extent I think he has the right to. I think the bigger mystery is what was wrong with Xemnas. While all other Nobodies had a drive to become whole again. He had a drive to gain more and more power. Maybe why he is different will be explained in Birth by Sleep.

Yet without emotion, there is no reason for drive. You do not long, you do not worry, you don't feel. Why then would the Nobodies care so much about obtaining hearts once more? If they were truly emotionless, they wouldn't give a damn. Even remembering what having emotions is like, there would have to be some feeling of lacking, of want, for them to be so driven to seek out their hearts once more. Everything a person does is for a reason, even if it's as simple as them just wanting to. It's clear that even if it's only on a base level, Nobodies must have emotions of some kind. Simply put, no emotions means you do not care; remembering what having feelings was like would have no effect, as they would be unable to feel regret, anger, or loss.

Maybe I'm taking it too literally, but Sora sure seemed to think that it was a completely literal fact about Nobodies.

Ethan

Sep 17 2009, 03:11 AM

MEBEH everyone, even the Nobody's are confused about their condition and they are left with one emotion and that one emotion makes them want to be complete again. They just don't realize because the emotion has nothing to do with anything other than getting their heart back.

OR... I had a though but I lost it. I think it was a good one but then again I don't really remember what it was like lol.

Death Penalty

Sep 17 2009, 03:25 AM

Fenryr

Sep 17 2009, 09:45 AM

First of all, as Hextan stated, they mimicked the emotions perfectly. They laughed pretending they found something funny when in actuality they felt nothing. They pulled sadfaces pretending they were upset by Sora's actions.

You see every emotion they displayed was perfectly acted out, if however you display an emotion it doesn't mean you actually feel it. Becoming amazing at displaying emotion does not mean you would not want to relive those feeling connected with the emotion. That is what they longed for. They wished to return to their former selves, to know what it felt like to actually find something funny or sad.

Making it clear before I move on: Acting out emotion does not mean the feelings we associate with those emotions were at all being felt. In Kingdom Hearts, the role of a heart means if they were to aquire one they would be aquiring what they had lost. Their emotions, their souls and everything that could make them feel once more.

I feel it should be noted that the drive to do something or to become something does not come from your 'emotion'. In the case of the nobodies, becoming whole again is their sole purpose of existence. If you have only one sole pupose to exist then you will simply try to fulfill this purpose no matter what. You don't have to feel anything to want to fulfill it, you simply want to fulfill it. On that note, "want" is not an emotion either. The nobodies purpose was to become whole again, they also "wanted" to become whole again. You have to put aside the fact that when they acted out emotionally that they wished to become whole again, it was just that, an act.

They acted out the desire as if to fortify it, yet they still do not feel particulary strongly for the cause, they simply need to do it.

Now what was so interesting about it, was that if they could obtain hearts without doing evil then there would be no problem as you all admit. Yet how do you obtain hearts? It is the heartless who "take" the hearts of people. Thus the mission was:

- Get heartless to kill people (or let those people BECOME heartless themselves, which is the other possibility)
- Get Sora to kill those Heartless
- Get your nobodies to collect those hearts
- Create your own hearts

It didn't matter whether Xemnas was using the organization to get his own heart (I doubt he was creating one for each member) as they did not feel anything towards this betrayal as they have no emotion. So claiming that the Organization was doing nothing wrong is missing the story. They simply manipulated Sora and others to get what they wanted, and through that killing innocents or turning them into Heartless. If you claim they did nothing wrong, you missed the connection to the heartless and what they "do" to people.

Finally, I believe it's also worth noting that Axel is not an ordinary nobody. Much like Roxas was not an ordinary nobody, or Naminé for that matter. It's eluded to many times during his scenes, especially during the last one where he sacrifices himself for Sora that there is something different about Axel and that he may already have the remnants of a heart yet. I'm not sure though, it is hinted towards but for certainty you'd probably need to play 356/2 days (which is out soon for me!).

---

That's all I have for now, sorry for the long reply, much needed to be said and I'm sure the OP will read it if he truly wants to know the answers. Plus as a big KH fan (favourite series), I felt I had to reply.

Glacies

Sep 17 2009, 11:01 AM

Fenryr

Sep 17 2009, 11:52 AM

^I you want something, the feeling is called desire. And you have a purpose in life you don't need to do it, however you can feel the need to fufill that purpose.
I like KH (1 and chain of memories) and though I'd like to..well like KH2 as well, it sucked pretty hard everywhere in comparison to KH1.

You're missing the fundamental points.

Desire can be understood in wanting something of value to you, wanting to achieve something. The want we are talking about is the unexplainable kind. You want something yet you are not sure why you want it. There is no way to explain it, there is nothing in particular you are feeling, you simply want to do it. I want to do action A over action B, I'm not sure why I want to do it, I just do. There isn't always an emotion behind an action, and this is what you don't seem to understand.

Organization XIII knew how to perform the actions, yet there was no emotion behind their actions. You don't need to find a link between the two because sometimes it simply does not exist. I can go and kick a squirrel, did I do it because I hate squirrels or am feeling sadistic? No, I did it purely because I did it. If we continue this line of discussion you head off into the debate of whether or not there are reasons behind every action (we don't need to go there).

Again a purpose in life doesn't need to be fulfilled. Yet if you come to the realization it is the only purpose you have since you can't have fun, you can't have any emotional moments in your life since you do not know this "emotion", then there is but only one thing left to do within this existence:

Fulfill your purpose.

There is no feeling the need to fulfill it, you simply have to do it. It's not a crazy thought considering this purpose is all you know. It is your only bit of knowledge, the only bit of "existence" they can hold on to. For if they did not have this purpose they truly would be nothing. For people who want to prove they exist, grasping at the only shred of reason left is all there is to it.

In my opinion, KH2 was fantastic and completely comparable to KH1. The only problems I had was that some of the worlds followed the Disney storylines to the fine letters.

Glacies

Sep 17 2009, 02:05 PM

You're missing the fundamental points.

Desire can be understood in wanting something of value to you, wanting to achieve something. The want we are talking about is the unexplainable kind. You want something yet you are not sure why you want it. There is no way to explain it. What you're describing is desire.

there is nothing in particular you are feeling, you simply want to do it. I want to do action A over action B, I'm not sure why I want to do it, I just do.
You're still describing desire, you don't need to know why you desire something, to desire it.

There isn't always an emotion behind an action, and this is what you don't seem to understand.Yes there is. Always.

I can go and kick a squirrel, did I do it because I hate squirrels or am feeling sadistic? No, I did it purely because I did it. If we continue this line of discussion you head off into the debate of whether or not there are reasons behind every action (we don't need to go there).There is not necessarily reason behind every action, but there is emotion.

Again a purpose in life doesn't need to be fulfilled.
That's true, you can simply not do it and die.

Yet if you come to the realization it is the only purpose you have since you can't have fun, you can't have any emotional moments in your life since you do not know this "emotion", then there is but only one thing left to do within this existence: Fulfill your purpose.
He can also choose to die. And If you have two options, one fulfull your purpose, and two do nothing. And you then you choose to fulfill your purpose, you choice that because it seems more appealing, which brings us back to desire, as you than you desire to to something rather than nothing.

There is no feeling the need to fulfill it, you simply have to do it.
They weren't backed up against a wall, no one was forcing them, so they didn't have to do anything.

It's not a crazy thought considering this purpose is all you know. It is your only bit of knowledge, the only bit of "existence" they can hold on to.If they want to hold on to something that again is a desire.

For if they did not have this purpose they truly would be nothing. For people who want to prove they exist, grasping at the only shred of reason left is all there is to it.wanting to proove they exist is another desire. The Nobodies has got alot of desire going on :P

In my opinion, KH2 was fantastic and completely comparable to KH1. The only problems I had was that some of the worlds followed the Disney storylines to the fine letters.That's your opinion, and you've already read mine.

Death Penalty

Sep 17 2009, 05:33 PM

Organization XIII knew how to perform the actions, yet there was no emotion behind their actions. You don't need to find a link between the two because sometimes it simply does not exist. I can go and kick a squirrel, did I do it because I hate squirrels or am feeling sadistic? No, I did it purely because I did it. If we continue this line of discussion you head off into the debate of whether or not there are reasons behind every action (we don't need to go there).

I find this a perfectly valid argument for the Nobodies having emotions, but you're right in saying that it would spark an enormous debate that would likely get further and further away from the original point. I just want to say this: You kicked the squirrel, in all likelihood, because you felt like it. Even if you can't determine the exact source of this want, it almost surely originated in something that you were feeling. Intelligence without emotion, I still firmly believe, would get nowhere. And that still doesn't explain several key points of mine, and I have to go on to point out that wanting to prove your existence is something beings incapable of caring would have absolutely no interest in. I will still maintain that, for beings of higher reason, there is no drive without some sort of desire. The Heartless, at least, can be understood as simply being hungry.

Axel's sacrifice is still the elephant in the room here, for it did absolutely nothing to advance him reattaining his heart. His friendship with Roxas is highly irregular as well. And, if this is just an effect that Sora and Roxas have on Nobodies, why were no others affected in the same way? And even if they were acting out emotions faithfully, I find it hard to believe that they would find it necessary at the moment of their deaths. For instance, Vexen begged for his life from another Nobody, Axel. Who would he be fooling, there?

Ethan

Sep 17 2009, 06:33 PM

I remember! People say that you're sometimes subconsciously attracted to something that you are missing? For example... some people who have never had a mother might find themselves being drawn to a friend's mom (Don't turn this into something dirty plx) :wtf:

Another OR... To become whole again is an instinct. Like an animal instinct. An animal doesn't eat a particular something because it wants to or likes the flavor, it will eat anything to stay alive. But I guess we are stepping into emotions and animals territory and I really don't feel like going there. Maybe a Nobody has one instinct and that is to get their heart back. This includes doing things to stay alive until you can accomplish your goal, hence the whole begging for your life thing.

:wtf: feel free to nitpick.

Fenryr

Sep 17 2009, 07:17 PM

What you're describing is desire.

You're still describing desire, you don't need to know why you desire something, to desire it.

Yes there is. Always.

There is not necessarily reason behind every action, but there is emotion.

That's true, you can simply not do it and die.

He can also choose to die. And If you have two options, one fulfull your purpose, and two do nothing. And you then you choose to fulfill your purpose, you choice that because it seems more appealing, which brings us back to desire, as you than you desire to to something rather than nothing.

They weren't backed up against a wall, no one was forcing them, so they didn't have to do anything.

If they want to hold on to something that again is a desire.

wanting to proove they exist is another desire. The Nobodies has got alot of desire going on :P

I respectfully disagree with everything you just said.

You're drifting into the debate of reasons behind actions. Again, I'm not going to go there as that is a debate already argued out to the fullest. It remains a matter of opinion whether there is emotion or reason behind every action. Again the kicking the squirrel argument, you do not need a reason nor emotion to be able to go over to the squirrel and kick it. Nor do you need a reason to stop walking and sit down (nor emotion). You flailing in this topic telling me "YES THERE IS EMOTION AND REASON BEHIND EVERYTHING" won't change that fact.

Adding on, there is a certain theory behind random acts. I can't remember what it's called but it applies to various areas such as maths and sociology. At the core of it exists the "..it just is" or the ".. it just did" fact. It's an area of discussion when debating reason (and or emotion) by actions.

Ending: your very arguments seemed to be based around the notion that all actions are consequences of emotion and reason. And although it can be proven that this is not always the case, you are clearly on the other side of the fence (in regards to that debate). For this very reason I'm going to have to end this discussion here, because I really don't care to debate that territory.

So as I said in the beginning, agree to disagree.

Oh and regards to THIS:
That's your opinion, and you've already read mineIt's absolutely unneccesary to reply to that, I stated what I thought of the game right after you. Rehashing what I just said and saying it's my opinion is stating the obvious. It came out of my mouth, of course it's my opinion.

Another OR... To become whole again is an instinct. Like an animal instinct. An animal doesn't eat a particular something because it wants to or likes the flavor, it will eat anything to stay alive. But I guess we are stepping into emotions and animals territory and I really don't feel like going there. Maybe a Nobody has one instinct and that is to get their heart back. This includes doing things to stay alive until you can accomplish your goal, hence the whole begging for your life thing.
This is a another great example to bring into the discussion. Instincts are not driven by emotion, they are natural like breathing etc.

Oh, and to Death Penalty, the squirrel example is a very poor example taken from a reason behind actions discussion. Examples using violence are poor ones so apologies for that one, again I don't ever really care to dabble in that debate:wtf:.

Death Penalty

Sep 17 2009, 07:45 PM

Oh, and to Death Penalty, the squirrel example is a very poor example taken from a reason behind actions discussion. Examples using violence are poor ones so apologies for that one, again I don't ever really care to dabble in that debate:wtf:.

If you do not care to go into that debate, that's fine. Sure. I don't honestly care, but you once again didn't explain precisely why Axel might have sacrificed himself. This was basically exactly the opposite of what you've described as this 'drive' behind Nobodies. Axel wasn't even a 'special' Nobody like Roxas or Namine. Vexen begging for his life from Axel also makes no sense, even as preservation. If the Nobodies both know they have absolutely no emotions, what would Vexen be trying to appeal to? If Nobodies have no emotions, that means that at their core they are nothing but reason towards a goal that you cannot explain why they wish to attain.

Also, there are many psychologists that will tell you that your so-called 'random' acts are rooted in subconscious emotion. Without emotion, the Nobodies would basically be flatworms. They would simply exist. I'll admit, this is a possible case, but the ambition for a heart and their actions suggest strongly otherwise, and they also seem to point to a basic sense of, at the very least, loss. While I very much enjoyed KHII, I cannot help but think that Nobodies working in absolutes of no emotion simply does not work given the story presented to us.

And as for the instinct debate, you're describing Heartless. Heartless are nothing but instinct.

Glacies

Sep 17 2009, 08:37 PM

I respectfully disagree with everything you just said.
That's okay as I disrespectfully disagree with everything you've said so far in this thread.

It remains a matter of opinion whether there is emotion or reason behind every action.No, that's a fact.

Adding on, there is a certain theory behind random acts. I can't remember what it's called but it applies to various areas such as maths and sociology. At the core of it exists the "..it just is" or the ".. it just did" fact. It's an area of discussion when debating reason (and or emotion) by actions.
Bring that up again when you actually know something about it.

Ending: your very arguments seemed to be based around the notion that all actions are consequences of emotion and reason. And although it can be proven that this is not always the case.If you prove that to me, I'll bend. But intill you do, I'll stand by my statement

This is a another great example to bring into the discussion. Instincts are not driven by emotion, they are natural like breathing etc.
Instincts are driven by reason, and can be explained.

Fenryr

Sep 18 2009, 10:17 AM

No, that's a fact.

You're drifting into the debate of reasons behind actions. Again, I'm not going to go there as that is a debate already argued out to the fullest.http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/781/1z57nmt.gif

I already said I'm not going to debate this, you flailing around claiming it's fact won't change the fact that's it's not.

Oh and again, I've already agreed to disagree. I'm not arguing you have several valid points and I can also understand where you're coming from, but a difference of opinion remains a difference of opinion. If we continue this, we're going to be repeating ourselves, and I'm quite frankly bored of that. By all means though if you do wish to continue, then continue.

If you do not care to go into that debate, that's fine. Sure. I don't honestly care, but you once again didn't explain precisely why Axel might have sacrificed himself.There's something worth discussing. I was also quite surprised by Axel's stand-off. But take this into consideration:

- Roxas, although a nobody, displayed a wide variety of emotions did he not? He was special.
- Naminé did the same and was the nobody of Kairi.
- Axel fit somewhere into the trio and as we have no clue who his real self was, perhaps it can be assumed he was a major character, Riku?

I've not played 356/2 days yet, but I imagine it will ellaborate. If he was Riku's nobody, which let's not forget would be possible considering Riku lost his heart to darkness (I even think Ansem told Sora this before he tried to rescue him), then it wouldn't be crazy to imagine that Axel could display a wide variety of emotion just like Roxas or Naminé. After-all Riku was supposed to be the original Key-Blade master, and even in KH2 he wields a keyblade (I forget if it's chainless or not).

But anyway, once 356/2 days comes out we might know more.

At the end of it though, I'm not claiming KH2 to be flawless. If you really want to nit-pick you can, but you can do that with every story. Final Fantasy 7, Aeries dies after being stabbed by a sword yet hours before that she seemed to be able to survive huge flames and icicles being cast onto her body before being gunned down by robots on wheels. If you take a look at any story, it all has an inconsistency somewhere, I prefer to look past them as once you do you can actually enjoy the story for what it is. Then again, if you enjoy finding the inconsistencies, ENJOY AWAY BROSEFS.

Ethan

Sep 18 2009, 01:24 PM

SPOILER
You've been warned.

Axel is definitely not Riku's Nobody, this is confirmed in 358/2 Days when Saix calls him Lea, his real name. Apparently Lea and Saix's original self knew each other and were actually even friends. He does seem to be the "Riku" of the trio though so it will be interesting to learn more maybe in Birth by Sleep

Which I think Birth by Sleep might explain the whole Nobody thing a little more. So far the, the only time we have seen Nobody's original selves is when we see Xehanort, well excluding Kairi and Sora. I think it will be interesting to see more of the Organization members before they were Nobodies. It might explain some things.

Glacies

Sep 18 2009, 02:27 PM

I already said I'm not going to debate this, you flailing around claiming it's fact won't change the fact that's it's not.You claming that it isn't a fact won't change the fact that it is.

- Roxas, although a nobody, displayed a wide variety of emotions did he not? He was special.
- Naminé did the same and was the nobody of Kairi.
- Axel fit somewhere into the trio and as we have no clue who his real self was, perhaps it can be assumed he was a major character, Riku?

I haven't played 358/2 either, but no, Axel is not Rikus nobody, unless there is another deep flaw here there is no chance.

At the end of it though, I'm not claiming KH2 to be flawless. If you really want to nit-pick you can, but you can do that with every story. Final Fantasy 7, Aeries dies after being stabbed by a sword yet hours before that she seemed to be able to survive huge flames and icicles being cast onto her body before being gunned down by robots on wheels. If you take a look at any story, it all has an inconsistency somewhere, I prefer to look past them as once you do you can actually enjoy the story for what it is. Then again, if you enjoy finding the inconsistencies, ENJOY AWAY BROSEFS.
I see your point but that was a horrible example.

Death Penalty

Sep 18 2009, 03:42 PM

There's something worth discussing. I was also quite surprised by Axel's stand-off. But take this into consideration:

- Roxas, although a nobody, displayed a wide variety of emotions did he not? He was special.
- Naminé did the same and was the nobody of Kairi.
- Axel fit somewhere into the trio and as we have no clue who his real self was, perhaps it can be assumed he was a major character, Riku?

I could be wrong, but I believe the source for Naminé and Roxas' emotions was the fact that they were, as you might say, 'born different'. I forget why, but apparently it has a lot to do with the really weird setup that was Sora's hearts in KH1. Either way, as you said, Sora and Kairi's Nobodies are indeed special. Without spoiling anything, it's one-hundred percent certain that Axel is not Riku's Nobody, at this point, so I'm still confused at to why he saved Sora. This doesn't completely destroy your idea of Axel being special somehow as well, of course! If there are circumstances in which special Nobodies are made, Axel need not be Riku to possess emotions.

At the end of it though, I'm not claiming KH2 to be flawless. If you really want to nit-pick you can, but you can do that with every story. Final Fantasy 7, Aeries dies after being stabbed by a sword yet hours before that she seemed to be able to survive huge flames and icicles being cast onto her body before being gunned down by robots on wheels. If you take a look at any story, it all has an inconsistency somewhere, I prefer to look past them as once you do you can actually enjoy the story for what it is. Then again, if you enjoy finding the inconsistencies, ENJOY AWAY BROSEFS.

:lol: Or the great Phoenix Down issue, for that matter! My point isn't to find plot holes or inconsistency, any old jerk can do that. I'm wondering, though, if the Nobodies aren't something more than the story has let on so far. If Axel wasn't a special Nobody like Roxas, then there's at least one thing we don't know about Nobodies right there: Can they eventually develop true emotions? Either way, Sora picking fights with and slaughtering them never really sat exactly right with me; one of the few moments where I really didn't like what Sora was doing.

Fenryr

Sep 18 2009, 04:43 PM

:lol: Or the great Phoenix Down issue, for that matter! My point isn't to find plot holes or inconsistency, any old jerk can do that. I'm wondering, though, if the Nobodies aren't something more than the story has let on so far. If Axel wasn't a special Nobody like Roxas, then there's at least one thing we don't know about Nobodies right there: Can they eventually develop true emotions? Either way, Sora picking fights with and slaughtering them never really sat exactly right with me; one of the few moments where I really didn't like what Sora was doing.

Oh, well there goes the Axel - Riku idea. But I still believe him to be special somehow. Without reading the spoiler from Hextan, it seemed to point towards more explaining of the Nobodies. So who knows, maybe they can become more than nothing. Nice thought though, it'd be interesting to see the development of emotions and feelings. Especially with a character like Axel.

Anyway, I used to feel the same. Was a little puzzled why Sora was denying them a heart. But I simply figured the whole, using heartless to get hearts for them, was reason enough not to let them continue.

Death Penalty

Sep 18 2009, 05:41 PM

Oh, well there goes the Axel - Riku idea. But I still believe him to be special somehow. Without reading the spoiler from Hextan, it seemed to point towards more explaining of the Nobodies. So who knows, maybe they can become more than nothing. Nice thought though, it'd be interesting to see the development of emotions and feelings. Especially with a character like Axel.

Anyway, I used to feel the same. Was a little puzzled why Sora was denying them a heart. But I simply figured the whole, using heartless to get hearts for them, was reason enough not to let them continue.

I actually used to think that Axel could be related to the main characters too, until I found out that the names of the human Nobodies are usually their original names anagramed and with an x thrown in. Ansem being Xemnas, Roxas being Sora and so forth. The only exception seems to be Naminé, who was technically composed of two beings in a weird way. On an interesting side note, did you know that Xehanort is an anagram of 'no heart' if you take out the x? That was pretty off-topic, sorry.

And yeah, using heartless seems to be a pretty good justification for the bearer of the keyblade getting his britches in a bunch, and I suppose they did kidnap Kairi and continuously taunt, confuse and hinder Sora. Still, like a previous poster said, I didn't see much of what they did as outright evil; Sora seemed to hate them quite a lot anyways, though.

Fenryr

Sep 18 2009, 06:32 PM

I actually used to think that Axel could be related to the main characters too, until I found out that the names of the human Nobodies are usually their original names anagramed and with an x thrown in. Ansem being Xemnas, Roxas being Sora and so forth. The only exception seems to be Naminé, who was technically composed of two beings in a weird way. On an interesting side note, did you know that Xehanort is an anagram of 'no heart' if you take out the x? That was pretty off-topic, sorry.

And yeah, using heartless seems to be a pretty good justification for the bearer of the keyblade getting his britches in a bunch, and I suppose they did kidnap Kairi and continuously taunt, confuse and hinder Sora. Still, like a previous poster said, I didn't see much of what they did as outright evil; Sora seemed to hate them quite a lot anyways, though.

Ah yes, I completely forgot about the name thing. I guess the naminé ruling threw me off. And yes the Xehanort anagram was always an entertaining one. Just in case you forgot he had no heart, well here's his name!