Science > God

[Wandering Hands]

No, though as fun as it would be, I'm not just saying this to stir up shit.

YouTube - 1000 Years of Creationist 'Achievements'

Video has a point. But some smartarse Christian is bound to say "Our success is God's will."

[Neal]

Rofl. I lol'd at the Blade Runner music. Went perfectly with the launch <3

[Nagase]

I've....seeeeeeennn things you people wouldn't believe.

[Caelignis]

This made my day, Thank you Shuyu <3


EVERY ONE!!!!!ASDFASDFASDF

[Sabin]

For some odd reson I can not watch this.

It says something like this (translated from Swedish to English): This video clip is not available in your country becuase of copyright infringement.

[Kuja Las Vegas]

Blasphemy! Everyone knows there is no God.

But there IS a Goddess! And she is far more all-knowing and all-beautiful than anything any mere mortal man could ever conceive of.

And God is not White. Jesus was a Jew. He was of dark complexion with dark hair. This hasn't stopped the Catholic church from portraying him as an "Aryan" blonde hair and blue eyes for the last what, 2000 years.

[Nagase]

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq307/JesusBlewMeOnce/1249953278779.jpg

[finalmattasy]

imo this vid is a perfect example of a narrow-minded angry atheist viewpoint. To think that none of the individuals involved in these discoveries and inventions, that none of them believed in a God is absurd.

"Creationists urge ignorance in favor of an arbitrary religion that achieves nothing."
-translated into rational thinking this means:
"I don't believe creationism is true; and I'm willing to assume that those who do, do not care for any form of knowledge besides their belief in God."

I'll debunk that statement by confessing to the fact that I believe in creation, and I am interested in all of the discoveries that science has found and will continue to find. The discoveries and products of science actually encourage my belief in creation. Science continues to reveal a world and universe so immensely complex that it insults my personal sense to think that all of this came about through simple chance over time.

The fact is, atheism is one belief among many. Those who assume their belief is superior to other's beliefs simply because they really really believe them (or worse, really really don't like another's belief) are less than intelligent (in this area).

-this vid is nearing the very epitome of dumb imo.

[finalmattasy]

i'm starting to think that a section of, maybe many, atheists really passionately want religion to go away. Like they feel that if the idea of God could be squelched then they wouldn't have to concern themselves, or be around others who concern themselves with something that they cannot physically study.
If someone enjoys science and the study of matter/anti-matter etc. Please do yourself a favor and don't get hung up just because others are interested in something that is outside your area of expertise.

[Neal]

No, that's not the point at all. I think most people don't like being told how to live their lives by someone who believes in faith over fact.

[finalmattasy]

@Neal
If people who believe in God, Christians for instance, are indeed forcing people to change, saying, "you can't be the way you are, you have to think and act the way I do." Then yeah, those guys are out of line. But Christians (according to the Bible) don't do that. They have faith in a God that lets anybody do anything, after which there are consequences.

Christians believe in a certain way of living their lives; and they naturally believe that their belief is right. But that shouldn't phase those who don't believe. Unless of course there is something within them that agrees with the teachings of Christianity and they don't want to follow those teachings. In that case it makes sense that they would become upset over the idea of God/Christianity.

Most importantly in regards to your comment Neal. The statement you made of, "faith over fact" is assuming that there are verifiable facts that overthrow belief in God, of which there are none. Atheism or science's assumption of superiority because either of them is based in fact is unjustifiable simply because atheism or science cannot explain everything. All you have to do is ask "why" to every answer that science has and eventually you will run out of answers. In the case of atheism, asking "why" will eventually lead to an answer that is prefixed by the statement, "I believe that..." Atheism is a belief. It is in no way superior to any other.

[Eighty88Eight]

Or vice versa. I wouldn't be so quick to say science is the art of the atheist. Science, has it's own God whether they'd like to put it in those terms or not; the big bang. There seems to be sufficient evidence that the Earth is expanding, lending some credibility to the theory, but the very idea of a big bang has much weightier implications about the history of our existance which seems to be entirely beyond the reach of mans brain... at the moment. I'm optimistic, but there seems to be things in this universe that man will probably never be able to comprehend, and that'll always be, to me anyways, the very idea of a scientific definition of God, which is what I believe in.

[Neal]

If people who believe in God, Christians for instance, are indeed standing up and saying, "you can't be the way you are, you have to think and act the way I do." Then yeah, those guys are out of line imo. But Christians don't do that. They have faith in a God that lets anybody do anything, after which there are consequences.

No, you mean not all Christians do that. Lots of them do, I've had plenty of people telling me I should believe in God and why. They can believe what they believe and I can believe what I believe and if I want to know more, I'll ask. :wtf:

[Shuryn]

imo this vid is a perfect example of a narrow-minded angry atheist viewpoint. To think that none of the individuals involved in these discoveries and inventions, that none of them believed in a God is absurd.

"Creationists urge ignorance in favor of an arbitrary religion that achieves nothing."
-translated into rational thinking this means:
"I don't believe creationism is true; and I'm willing to assume that those who do, do not care for any form of knowledge besides their belief in God."

I'll debunk that statement by confessing to the fact that I believe in creation, and I am interested in all of the discoveries that science has found and will continue to find. The discoveries and products of science actually encourage my belief in creation. Science continues to reveal a world and universe so immensely complex that it insults my personal sense to think that all of this came about through simple chance over time.

The fact is, atheism is one belief among many. Those who assume their belief is superior to other's beliefs simply because they really really believe them (or worse, really really don't like another's belief) are less than intelligent (in this area).

-this vid is nearing the very epitome of dumb imo.
I completely agree. Couldn't have said it better. :)

[finalmattasy]

I don't think science dictates the actuality of the big bang. Many (though certainly not all) people who are scientists believe in a big bang. But that doesn't make it scientific (i.e. verifiably factual).

[finalmattasy]

@Neal
No, you mean not all Christians do that. Lots of them do, I've had plenty of people telling me I should believe in God and why. They can believe what they believe and I can believe what I believe and if I want to know more, I'll ask.

You're right Neal, i edited my statement earlier to properly reflect what I think is true.

[Eighty88Eight]

I agree, but that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't an adopted belief of the scientific community. That field has undergone it's own bastardizations with the infiltration of overt political motives and it's propensity for alarmism. I'm still breathlessly awaiting George Page's prediction that the worlds coral reefs would cease to exist... by 1998.

Also, your definition of science is a bit slippery, since much of it is based on the concept of theories, unless of course you're dealing with mathematics.

Those points notwithstanding, I do agree with what you say, hence the analogy I made equating the big bang with god.

[Alazais]

I lol'd at the "EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!" bit but other then that, if the video has a point it's made it very badly.

[finalmattasy]

@Eight88EightEntertainment
I think your last post was right on the money!

[Eighty88Eight]

@Eight88EightEntertainment
I think your last post was right on the money!


I agree, thank you sir.

[S-r-ex]

Let's consider now. God supposedly gave humans a free will. A fact that we exploit very well! We have used our free will to explore God's creation in it's details, all by ourselves. God never told us how to conduct a lunar landing, and it was man himself who figured out how to build a particle accelerator. He certainly never told us about genetics, radiowaves, fusion, plastic, combustion engines, or 3D graphics. In fact, diseases being curses was a pretty good lie. He did keep it so until that Swede built his microscope and discovered the first microscopic lifeforms.

But somehow, I feel the question is rather: Do we really need God anymore and do he need us? Haven't we gotten pretty far by ourselves in the past two millennia? According to the bible, he did all sorts of stuff until Jesus ascended. Since then, it would appear he's not home. Who knows, maybe he's started all over on a new save and just let us to keep running? And if he really was that much of a creator, why did he quit after just six days? Or maybe he realized that we can fend for ourselves, just like parents let their children out to face to world? He's not doing anything about the "atheist problem" either....

BTW, not fucked up by region-restriction-mumbo-jumbo:
YouTube - 1000 Years of Creationist 'Achievements'

[Falsate]

Are we all puppets? Do we really exist? Do we actually feel the things that hurt us?
DAMN SKIPPY.

[finalmattasy]

In fact, diseases being curses was a pretty good lie. He did keep it so until that Swede built his microscope and discovered the first microscopic lifeforms.

That all depends on what you think a curse is. If a curse is something that can never be physically observed, and just happens for no apparent reason. Then yeah, God is a liar. But if you read the definition of a curse you'll see that is not what a curse is.

This is the twisted logic that I seem to get from some people who would proclaim to be atheist. It's as though the very fact that they can observe something happening, and categorize it with names and jargon; that they somehow jump to the belief that they have dominion over it, or understand it's origins.

But somehow, I feel the question is rather: Do we really need God anymore and do he need us?

Well (according to the Bible) God gives eternal life and fullness of life on earth to all who believe. Many people don't want to die and want a better life on earth. So if the Bible is true, then yes, those people do need God. And according to the Bible God certainly does want us.

Haven't we gotten pretty far by ourselves in the past two millennia?

If you think that computers, space travel and microbiology are the things that all humans are most concerned with, then yes, man has done wonderfully to fill the core needs of humanity. But I think the number one need of man is the answer to, "why am I here, why do I have to die, is there purpose to my existence?"
The Bible says in Ecclesiastes 3:11 "He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end." That part about eternity in our hearts is true for everyone. Every human has the capacity to fathom life after death. Humans can fathom the fact that things carry on (here on earth, and throughout the universe) after they die. Everyone wonders "why." "Why" is the very thing that inspires scientific study.

According to the bible, he did all sorts of stuff until Jesus ascended. Since then, it would appear he's not home.

If Jesus is real (i believe he is) then his evidence is certainly shown in our present day through the millions of lives that find faith in him.

If you want to talk about miracles and signs and the gift of the Holy Spirit etc.. then a simple search on the internet will yield thousands of accounts of supernatural things that people believe God has done in our day. Anyone who wants to believe can. Anyone who wants to call the witnesses and testimonies of these things a farce can do that as well. I'd agree that some of them probably are a farce. But I can tell you that I've seen a friend of mine whose one leg was shorter than the other, get prayed for, immediately after which her two legs became equal. Call me a liar, call her a liar.. call it delusion, insanity, whatever. According to the Bible, God isn't gonna force anybody to follow Him. Everyone is free to choose.

Who knows, maybe he's started all over on a new save and just let us to keep running? And if he really was that much of a creator, why did he quit after just six days?

According to the Bible God was satisfied with His creation after those 6 days. Later he created woman because according to Him it was not good for man to be alone. If your saying that He should have continued to create stuff out of nothing just so that everybody could know beyond a shadow that He's for real.. I could answer that he does, but you have to search those miracles (like the one I mentioned) out. I'll also say that God in the Bible is interested in those who are interested in Him. He's perfect, he doesn't abide the things that are listed as sin in the Bible. If someone likes the things that he calls sin, and doesn't want to entertain the idea that those things might be wrong in God's eyes.. then God isn't the sort of person to barge in and demand that they follow Him. The God in the Bible wants people who want Him.

Or maybe he realized that we can fend for ourselves, just like parents let their children out to face to world? He's not doing anything about the "atheist problem" either....

The "atheism problem" like the "not-God problem" that has existed since the practical dawn of time isn't a problem to God. The Bible says that God is willing to reveal himself to anyone who is willing to search him out.

As far as hell and all that stuff that sucks so much.. and the idea that that is an extremely rough deal to anyone who doesn't want to be a Christian. -- there are allot of things that the churches of today are about that isn't part of being Christian (according to the Bible). Hell is simply the separation from the grace and mercy of God. According to the Bible everyone deserves hell because of sin. According to the Bible Jesus cleanses us of all our sin so that we can stand before God apart from judgement. What man considers "good enough" and "moral" doesn't entail what may or may not be truly "moral".. according to the Bible.

[Squall_Leonhart]

FinalMattasy I agree with pretty much everything you've said and I believe you are an intelligent, thoughful, and open-minded individual. I was raised in a Christian family yet my faith has faltered and I still feel like I'm searching for answers. I do have a question that has been swirling around in my head for some time. According to the bible God knows all the events of time and all of what will happen? Right? Then before he even created us he knew we would sin against him. He also knew all of what every single person ever born will do and what choices they will make which means he knew before even creating us which of us would become Christians and go to heaven and which of us would refuse to do so and go to hell. This has always bothered me. How can there be free will, when God already knew of our entire future?

[Neal]

That's one of the gigantic flaws. It's either one or the other, it's impossible to have both. If everything is planned out, "God's plan" as so oftenly stated, then why do people even sin in the first place? If he can see what's going to happen then presumably we don't have any choice - so does he decide when we sin? He must, if he can see what's going to happen then it's planned by someone.

[finalmattasy]

As far as all the predestination stuff, I think that God has a plan for everyone, (John3:16) (Jeremiah 29:11). At the same time I think that God has given everyone the right to reject that plan. (John 12:4-6) (Joshua 7:19-21)

If I understand you right, I've struggled with the same stuff allot. If God made me, and I'm somebody who sins.. how is God not responsible for my sin, Hitler's sin, Satan's sin etc.

For me, it all comes down to whether or not I am willing to believe that God truly has the ability to make something that has free choice. (Gen1:27)

I think it's a pretty human reaction to look at God, and in our perception of him, combine the two qualities of "all-knowing" and "creator of all;" whereby we then rest on an assumption that it indicates a sick, controlling personality.

If we do that though, I think that we strip God of many of the other things that the Bible says that he is. The Bible says that God is all-loving, kind, compassionate, that he would never strike down or ignore the smallest shred of faith. (Luke 18:16) (Matthew 12:20)

Therefore to believe that the combination of "all-knowing" and "all-creating" is automatically perverse. Is to believe in a God that is not the God of the Bible.

I think every Christian needs to eventually ask themselves whether or not they are willing to believe in a God that can see the heart of an individual, and at the same time have given that individual a truly autonomous heart.

After scratching my head on this for a few years; it's actually a bit silly from my perspective now. Not that I disagree with the logic of God being a jerk. It's just that the assumption that God is a jerk in this area, it kind of extends from the fact that people can't create something that has free will. The objects that we make (tools, buildings, computers etc.) only do what we want them to do.

Personally I am no longer willing to place God in such a small box. I believe that the God of the Bible is the true God. As a result I believe in a God that created free will apart from his ability to understand the intent of our hearts. The two need not be mixed. Actually, if God is just, perfect, and caring like the Bible says He is; the two would never be mixed.

[Neal]

How do you mean people have the right to "reject" his plan? If he's decided time then you don't have a choice other than to follow the pretetermined path that he's set out for you.

[LittleVerdie]

If I understand you right, I've struggled with the same stuff allot. If God made me, and I'm somebody who sins.. how is God not responsible for my sin, Hitler's sin, Satan's sin etc.


I thought we were all meant to be born with Original Sin. Isn't that why God chose Mary to be the mother of Christ, because she was the only one born without Original Sin?

[finalmattasy]

@Little Verdie

The moral infallibility of Mary is something that is very much Catholic and quite simply not in the Bible. =(

Catholicism elevates Mary, Saints and priests (if i am not mistaken) to a level where they play a role in the forgiveness of sin as well as someone's ability to do things rightly. This is also not Biblical. =(

Catholicism is huge in it's following. It contains many many people who, according to the Bible, are very much "saved" "Christian" through faith in Jesus' sacrifice apart from works. =) But Catholicism also tacks on a bunch of things that are not scriptural as well. Why it does this? I do not know. Maybe for power? Maybe to create a system whereby people don't feel that they need to (or should) have a personally increasing relationship with Jesus? I got no idea..

As far as the "original sin/mary" thing:
Mary admits to the necessity of a Savior in regards to her own life in Luke 1:46 "And Mary said: “My soul glorifies the Lord 47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior."

If God is her Savior, how could she be pure? Anyone who needs God to be their Savior has sin. Otherwise they wouldn't need any assistance in escaping judgement. In other words, Mary had sin.

I just read a Catholic explanation that says that they believe that Jesus wiped away her original sin prior to birth. But there is simply no Scriptural basis for this.

The Bible says in Romans 3:10 "As it is written:“There is no one righteous, not even one; 11there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12All have turned away, they have together become worthless."
-and in verse 22 "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference."

The Bible gives no place for the perfection of Mary or any Saint or priest or anyone else apart from the salvation found through Jesus. -Mary is described as quite the typical mother, she is not shown in Scripture as someone who understood what Jesus was about in a number of the few times that she is mentioned (Luke 1:29) (Luke2:48) (Matthew 12:46-50). For more clarification on Mary (according to the Bible) hit up this site: http://christianity.about.com/od/christiandoctrines/qt/marymisconcepts.htm

The wonderful thing about Mary is that she was willing to believe God, regardless of the fact that she didn't understand how God would accomplish what He said He would. Luke1:26-38
But her belief is not special. We are all called to believe in God in the same way (in the Bible). Faith in Jesus is very much the same. We are asked by God to trust in His work, not ours. The amazing thing is, is that millions of people throughout the world have discovered that by making that decision to trust; that the promises of God in the Bible are indeed fulfilled in their lives.

The focus of sin in the Bible is not so much on the "original sin" but on the idea that all have sinned of their own accord.

I hope what I wrote makes sense. I also hope it doesn't come off as too anti-Catholic. I think that many of the focal things in the Bible are certainly reflected in Catholicism. Just that other things are reflected as well. If those other things are focussed on they can become quite un-Biblical imo.

[finalmattasy]

How do you mean people have the right to "reject" his plan? If he's decided time then you don't have a choice other than to follow the pretetermined path that he's set out for you.

It's not so much that He's "decided" time in regards to our personal lives; it's that he "knows" the time. It's an improtant differentiation imo.

Ephesians 2:6 says, "2"Honor your father and mother—which is the first commandment with a promise— 3that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth."

That quote illustrates that (according to the Bible) the time that someone has on earth is directly connected to their conduct and the choices they make (in this case, respecting mom and dad). Regardless of whether God knows the number of days; a person's time is not a predetermined set of days. God possessing that knowledge doesn't negate the Biblical principle that we have free choice to honor our parents or not. In the Bible, God created time. He lives in eternity so naturally he can see, and has control over, the end of our life. But that doesn't mean that we, who are living within time, don't have the ability to shape our lives as we see fit. Our personal freedom is very much relegated to within time. Just because God can see something and could control it if he wanted to, doesn't mean that He would control it.

The Bible says in Matthew 5:43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

The exposed character of God in this verse is that He is good to everyone. That He desires to give good things. According to the Bible, God has given everyone an opportunity to believe that their very life is a gift from Him. That opportunity is the life that we have, on earth, within time.

It's not as though the Bible is commanding people to do things that only a few have the ability to do.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
-this scripture is probably the most popular scripture of our day. most of us have probably seen some dude holding the reference up on a chunk of cardboard at a baseball game or something. Anyways, "For God so loved the world" .. that means everybody. "He gave his one and only Son" .. that's Jesus. "that whoever believes in Him" .. whoever means whoever. =)

The definition of whoever is, "whatever person or persons." It's clear here, and throughout scripture, that salvation is provided and intended for anybody and everybody.

"-shall not perish but have eternal life."

So in the Bible, if we believe in Jesus we will live. I won't get into it right now, but the Bible says that the act of believing in Jesus gives us the very strength and ability that we need in order to do things like, "honor our father and mother."

[finalmattasy]

One more thing I would like to add...

In the Bible there are blessings (like the ones I mentioned). But there are also curses. There are a handful of examples in the Bible that seem to look as though God is taking someone who might be innocent, and purposefully turning them over to evil. -i've already established that according to the Bible, there is nobody who is innocent.

Anyways, with these examples I think it's important to remember that Satan is also in the Bible. In the book of Job, Satan is shown as someone who comes before God and asks God if He can oppress people who may be willing to reject God. This dynamic is integral to understanding part of the reason why bad things happen on the earth (according to the Bible).

In the same way that there are many blessings in the Bible that God gives us, (and literally died to give us). There are also things that we will automatically be, "given over to," because God wants to help us grow in our trust, if we have trust, (in the various areas of our lives) that He really is faithful.

Also, if we are uninterested in God and by default interested in sin; we will be "given over to" those same things in the hope that we will see the emptiness of those desires, and turn to God whereby he is more than willing to heal us.

This dynamic isn't God being cruel or unfair. It is his willingness to give us what we want if we don't want Him.

In the Bible, God is the source of life, joy, peace, etc. All of the experiences that we have in these areas are a gift from God.

By contrast, the absence of God is death, pain, destruction, etc.

Because sin runs rampant on the earth, these negative experiences may very well be much of what we see in our daily lives (depending on where we look).

I just thought that was important to mention in balancing some of the other stuff I wrote.
-p.s. whoops, duplicate posts deleted... sorry =)

[Nagase]

You know, maybe 1 or 2 people might read all that Finalmattasy, not to mention you quadruple posted...not that I often moan about rules but that's just retarded.

[Neal]

You're missing the point anyway. If he can see what's going to happen then it is predetermined. If we really did have free will then he wouldn't be able to see what we're going to do because I haven't decided what I want for lunch on the 17 October 2020. :wtf:

[finalmattasy]

Actually, I think you're missing the point. Picture it, Sicily 1942... An analogy: I'm a father, I have a daughter, I work in an addictions recovery program. For my entire career I've seen, worked with and tried to help hundreds of kids addicted to... let's say crystal meth. Anyways, my daugher is growing up and I've told her countless times about the dangers of drug addiction. Do you get it? I with drugs, like God with sin have an intimate understanding of how terrible the stuff is. I've told my daughter, God has told everyone to stay away from the stuff. But that doesn't change the fact that my daughter can go out, get involved with the wrong group of friends, get into some junk, and open herself up to the statistical fact that she will be dead within four years due to her decision. I as that father know the trouble she will get herself into...but because I know that, does it make it my fault if she goes out and does it? Of course not, she has free will, we have free will.

Anyone who wants to trust in the perception that creation and knowledge combined = sicko controlling God, is free to do that, i.e. free will. ...now I'm just repeating myself.

There's a difference between "creating/knowing" and "creating/controlling." The God in the Bible is the former with respect to the lives of humans.

[Dream Machine]

Any entity existing that is Omniscient, immediately renders the idea of free will unworkable. If someone can see everything that has happened, is happening and will happen, then he, she or indeed it choosing to interact with events or even choosing not to is a conscious decision that effects what WE do, thereby taking away any free will.

Also, if your God is Omnipotent as you believe, can he microwave a burrito so hot even he can't eat it? :cookie:

This is why if there is something with a conscious will that created us in any way (which I don't really believe, but hey I don't rule anything out), I don't think she would be Omnipotent/etc.

[Neal]

Any entity existing that is Omniscient, immediately renders the idea of free will unworkable. If someone can see everything that has happened, is happening and will happen, then he, she or indeed it choosing to interact with events or even choosing not to is a conscious decision that effects what WE do, thereby taking away any free will.THANK YOU. Fucking hell, I've explained it like 5 times and got the same answer. It's impossible to see what's going to happen but the people it's happening to decide their own actions. Unless of course he can see every single possible combination of how I'd get up in the morning, wether I brush my teeth first or run down the street naked. :wtf:

[finalmattasy]

Obviously we disagree on whether or not the God of the Bible (or any God) could create free will (if they were all-knowing). So I'll stop trying to reshape my point. Thanx for reading and responding. Hopefully I was able to shed a bit of light on what the Bible says reality is. At the very least, I'm now a little less ignorant on one of the major sticking points for some of those who don't believe in the Bible.

If anyone wants to read what the definition of love is in the Bible they can check our 1Corinthians13:4-8. Since the God in the Bible is defined as love; matching the description there against omniscience reveals that God would truly give free will apart from and/or in spite of his omniscience. Because he's good to us (in the Bible).

I don't wanna argue back and forth on this. I'm not the first person to believe in the Bible, and your not the first person to believe it, or parts of it, are bulldoody. In all sincerity, thanx for your time. =)

[Teggles]

I don't wanna argue back and forth on this.

Nor do I, so I'm not even going to bloody start :)

Besides, I really only like to argue with people who use Christianity to influence law.