FF XIII.....Female Antagonist?

[MikeSkeez]

So I played through the demo once today and watched my room mate play it too.

During the opening sequence, before the menu appears, there is a brief clip of a woman exiting a ship with her back turned the entire time.

New Female villain? I think so!!!
Correct me if I'm wrong...but the last time the series saw this was back with Ultimecia(Edea Kramer) in VIII. I'm all for it if so.

Any thoughts?

http://www.finalfantasyunion.com/newsimages/ffxiii-famitsu-5.jpg

[Kätharina]

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*moved*

[Whiplash]

Final Fantasy XIII Updates (http://www.finalfantasy-xiii.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
Any new information on Final Fantasy XIII and the rest of the Fabula Nova Crystallis Compilation will be posted here

Also I'm fairly certain there's already a thread on this. Someone go and find it for me.

[Kätharina]

http://finalfantasy-xiii.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6441

lolololol

[Whiplash]

Good girl, you shall have a treat.

[DarkWan]

For me I think this military lady is actually Lighting herself!!!

I know already people want to kick and kill me as I have been saying this over and over (billion times LOL).

But there is a big similarity between the two in terms of look (hair) and the type of job (don't forget that lightning had once worked under Cocoon army as well as this lady) thus I came out with this theory.

Don't blame me !!

[Wandering Hands]

Setting aside from the fact that that woman wears glasses and Lightning doesn't (feel free to respond with "lolcontacts"), but she also got a breast reduction too, did she?

[LOL]

Dont' for get she dyed and cut her hair and traded in those hooker boots for her current sexy ones.

[Devegas]

it's good we got a pic but this is sort of old news, no disrespect dude

[Falsate]

Would be cool if they were old rivals or something. Maybe old friends that hate each other because one is an I'Cie. Anyway..enough about that.

[Kurai Warrior]

Actually no, rivalries between past friends is one of the most over used plot devices out there. If that were to be the relationship between them, it would just give me another reason to throw my controller at the TV. I'd rather see her be a carbon copy of Sephiroth, then have that rivalry BS going on.
Turning into a psychotic bitch is always better no matter what :cookie:

[Falsate]

Actually no, rivalries between past friends is one of the most over used plot devices out there. If that were to be the relationship between them, it would just give me another reason to throw my controller at the TV. I'd rather see her be a carbon copy of Sephiroth, then have that rivalry BS going on.
Turning into a psychotic bitch is always better no matter what :cookie:
Obviously we all know thats overused. They are likely to do that rivarly situation in games because there is always at least one character with that plot. But in a game like this it's nice to see fighting since it's realistic which is exciting. And actually the psychotic factor wouldn't be that amusing for me. If anything turning into a beast!

[Wandering Hands]

SCORNED FORMER LOVER.

:wtf:

[Whiplash]

^CLEARLY Lightning took the last cupcake at the special military trainin luncheon that Glasses wanted. She vowed to destroy Lightning and so on.

The proof is in the cape.

[Kätharina]

She still a dyke though right?

[Whiplash]

Yeah. Cupcake is a mettyfor for vag.

[Wandering Hands]

The moment she saw it, Lightning desired to drive her tongue into the sweet honey inside.

[Kätharina]

MIGHTAY FINE

[Aurelia]

I'd rather see her be a carbon copy of Sephiroth, then have that rivalry BS going on.


I wouldn't be surprised if that chick turned out to be designed after Sephiroth. OH THE PARALLELS.

[CeruleanGriever]

well FFXIII already has it's number of similarities to FFVII so if she comes out to be as bad ass as Sephiroth i seriously will not be surprised lol
probably end up trying to kill Vanille too...oh the irony

[Wandering Hands]

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/4945/sherapedme.jpg


HER DARK PAST REVEALED.

[Aurelia]

And then Lightning rapes Vanille.

[CeruleanGriever]

lol Vanille gets owned that badly?

[Wandering Hands]

And then Lightning rapes Vanille.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2764/forcedsex.jpg

[Kätharina]

i giggled a little.

[Xero]

For me I think this military lady is actually Lighting herself!!!

I know already people want to kick and kill me as I have been saying this over and over (billion times LOL).

But there is a big similarity between the two in terms of look (hair) and the type of job (don't forget that lightning had once worked under Cocoon army as well as this lady) thus I came out with this theory.

Don't blame me !!

Maybe she's related to Lighting. An older sister perhaps?

[Rokuro]

For me I think this military lady is actually Lighting herself!!!

I know already people want to kick and kill me as I have been saying this over and over (billion times LOL).

But there is a big similarity between the two in terms of look (hair) and the type of job (don't forget that lightning had once worked under Cocoon army as well as this lady) thus I came out with this theory.

Don't blame me !!


I'm going wit this too cause Vanille looks twelve in this scene and in the rest of the game she looks 16

http://th08.deviantart.com/fs41/150/f/2009/031/9/9/998d63efef69b4ea37ccf8ed5c27bfc0.png :wub:

[DrStein]

lol all interesting points but id just like to say ultimicia in ff8 WAS NOT edea ?? totally different ppl and edea was only evil for like the first half of the game

[Whiplash]

.....
.................................................. .............


Why us?

[Lady~Vengeance]

I assumed that the "glasses" chick what related to Lightning. Oh well, we'll just have to find out.......in another 6 months or so! Oh the wait!

[Wandering Hands]

http://th08.deviantart.com/fs41/150/f/2009/031/9/9/998d63efef69b4ea37ccf8ed5c27bfc0.png :wub:

NO. JUST NO. Vanille is a sexual conquest, not a girlfriend.

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5095/imtakingyourvirginity.jpg

[Lady~Vengeance]

nice pic btw, that made my day

[stalemate666]

well FFXIII already has it's number of similarities to FFVII so if she comes out to be as bad ass as Sephiroth i seriously will not be surprised lol
probably end up trying to kill Vanille too...oh the irony

FFXIII doesn't seem to have that much more similarities to VII as it does to all the other ff games, I think it's just the hype of it coming out with AC

[Whiplash]

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5095/imtakingyourvirginity.jpg


<3

This needs to be the site logo or summat

[Aurelia]

NO. JUST NO. Vanille is a sexual conquest, not a girlfriend.

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5095/imtakingyourvirginity.jpg

<3 Beautiful.

[Wandering Hands]

Thank you, I drew inspiration for Lightning's aggressive sexual desires from real life sources.






:cathryn:

[Aurelia]

Thank you, I drew inspiration for Lightning's aggressive sexual desires from real life sources.






:cathryn:


You don't say~ :awesome:

[Falsate]

Whats with this lesbian stuff? :S

[Wandering Hands]

Lightning is in love with many women, but can rarely ever bring herself to have sex with them. She feels her breasts are inadequate in comparison and ends up shying away. The only time this doesn't apply is with Vanille, but CONTRARY TO CERTAIN DEPICTIONS, she doesn't really love Vanille.





She just wants to fuck her to rid her tensions.







UNLESS YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH LESBIANS OR SOMETHING? :wtf:

[Whiplash]

Whats with this lesbian stuff? :S

Hey don't blame us, SE were the ones who made them that way.

[Falsate]

Not at all! Pass them over here, G. :P

[Wandering Hands]

.... Ew.

No.

[Falsate]

Err, yes. Don't fight it..

"Give into the darkness". I'd be surprised if hat mysterious woman had a line.

[Thunder]

Lol Shuyu you horny bitch :aldo:

[Wandering Hands]

SHE WAS SITTING NEXT TO ME AND TOUCHING ME, WHAT ELSE WAS I SUPPOSED TO DO?

[Thunder]

Get away and pray your sins will pass unnoticed.

[Lady~Vengeance]

oh well, S-E will tell us who the "glasses broad" is eventually.

[iv4nsbc]

>_< f*cking perverts ...

But yeah, Lightning is a cold hearted b*tch ...

[Aurelia]

>_< f*cking perverts ...

But yeah, Lightning is a cold hearted b*tch ...


Mommy's not here to see you curse. :aldo:

[Wandering Hands]

She might be. I mean, mine's not, but I don't presume to know what the mothers in the world are up to.


Glassesho is upset because Lightning would not have children with her. Mmm, children (http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/650/paedophiles.jpg)...

[Aurelia]

Glassesho is upset because Lightning would not have children with her. Mmm, children (http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/650/paedophiles.jpg)...

Pedophiles are way much safer than those nasty l'Cie.

[Lady~Vengeance]

>_< f*cking perverts ...

But yeah, Lightning is a cold hearted b*tch ...

I just hope she does not pms throughout the entire game, that would just be lame :|

[Wandering Hands]

Pedophiles are way much safer than those nasty l'Cie.

But one must aim to seek refuge in the arms of the Lord (http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/9855/notapaedo.jpg).





:wtf:

[Xero]

I just hope she does not pms throughout the entire game, that would just be lame :|
Yeah, although it would be fun to watch her have a bitch fit over Vanille using the last antidote.

[Kätharina]

*cough* .

[gmoya909]

how it is compare to FF7? just cause of the cacoon and midgar? heck no! she dont look anything cloud but she has same behavior as squall in a way so make her even bad ass!
http://finalfantasy-xiii.net/forums/url=http://www.finalfantasyxiii.net/][img]http://www.finalfantasyxiii.net/downloads/signatures/sig-08.jpg[img][/url][img]http://www.finalfantasyxiii.net/downloads/signatures/sig-08.jpg[img] ("http://url=http://www.finalfantasyxiii.net/)"][/URL]

[iv4nsbc]

Mommy is not here at all ... So ... Fucking perverts ...

back to the topic, FFXIII is promissing a lot of clichés, warming Lightining's heart is one of them ...

[Lady~Vengeance]

Mommy is not here at all ... So ... Fucking perverts ...

back to the topic, FFXIII is promissing a lot of clichés, warming Lightining's heart is one of them ...

Well I'd rather have her warm up instead of acting overly stoic throughout, like I said that would just be lame:P

[Falsate]

Which cliches are you refering to? :O

[Ikkin]

Well I'd rather have her warm up instead of acting overly stoic throughout, like I said that would just be lame:P

She doesn't need to melt entirely to be more than the cold stoic type, though. I'd prefer her to show that she cares in her own way rather than have her wind up deciding that what she really wants is to take care of orphans. =P

[Lady~Vengeance]

She doesn't need to melt entirely to be more than the cold stoic type, though. I'd prefer her to show that she cares in her own way rather than have her wind up deciding that what she really wants is to take care of orphans. =P

I never mentioned that she needed to turn into another version of Mother Theresa, just change her initial attitude up a little. Just a little character development tis' all. That's what I meant.

[Ikkin]

I never mentioned that she needed to turn into another version of Mother Theresa, just change her initial attitude up a little. Just a little character development tis' all. That's what I meant.

Character development is good, yes. ^_^

I was more responding to the cliche that the others were talking about, the "Defrosting Ice Queen" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DefrostingIceQueen) who starts out as a cold, no-nonsense woman and winds up falling desperately in love with the hero by the end. As for the orphans, well, that'd be her fate if she followed the footsteps of either Cloud or the only other female lead under the Dissidia standard. ;)

[Lady~Vengeance]

Character development is good, yes. ^_^

I was more responding to the cliche that the others were talking about, the "Defrosting Ice Queen" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DefrostingIceQueen) who starts out as a cold, no-nonsense woman and winds up falling desperately in love with the hero by the end. As for the orphans, well, that'd be her fate if she followed the footsteps of either Cloud or the only other female lead under the Dissidia standard. ;)

Oh my mistake! Sorry about that :D
on a lighter note, I agree with you:)

[iv4nsbc]

The clichés that i'm talking about ... The problematic main char, the oppression by the government, the glimpse of a love story ...

I'm not saying that clichés are bad, not at all, is just there are no more "new problems" to put into question ... Everything has been done before, saving the world from aliens, from mad kings, from whoever or whatever ...

What I'd like to say is the game would like to deliver a message about something, friendship, love, freedom, whatever ... If we could know this messages, the rest is cliché ... Understand ?

(Oh god, this post is kinda off-topic, but I wanted to say this)

[cheesepizza]

Those cliches are what makes up most of FF lol I personally wanna see some story from the "bad" people's point of view... Like how if Lightning ends up killing and destroying everyone and everything... see how it happened and stuff... (Yea blabla) Like a story from Sephiroth's point of view... gee :3

[Falsate]

Those cliches are what makes up most of FF lol I personally wanna see some story from the "bad" people's point of view... Like how if Lightning ends up killing and destroying everyone and everything... see how it happened and stuff... (Yea blabla) Like a story from Sephiroth's point of view... gee :3

It would be crazy too if you had to do all the bad things then undo it all. That's one hell of a plot right there.

[cheesepizza]

It would be crazy too if you had to do all the bad things then undo it all. That's one hell of a plot right there.

LOL thats like a possible prequel and sequel merged as one game XD Of course if it's really good I won't mind :3

[Falsate]

LOL thats like a possible prequel and sequel merged as one game XD Of course if it's really good I won't mind :3

Swear that would be the most ownage plot ever. It's like a huge twist, bigger than Aeris' death.




Psyche. I think.

[Ikkin]

Those cliches are what makes up most of FF lol I personally wanna see some story from the "bad" people's point of view... Like how if Lightning ends up killing and destroying everyone and everything... see how it happened and stuff... (Yea blabla) Like a story from Sephiroth's point of view... gee :3

Squenix can't do that, because any time they let us get our hands on the bad guys, they instantly become more sympathetic. XD

Look at the FFVII Compilation. Playable Turks? Well, now AVALANCHE are the bad guys. Playable SOLDIER? He's one of the nicest protagonists in the series, and Sephiroth's not such a bad guy either. Or, alternatively, Kingdom Hearts. Playable Organization XIII? Well, you're still not gonna get to go around setting Heartless on people.

Besides, Lightning doesn't seem to have any motivation for that. Destroying the world requires a heavy dose of crazy, which she lacks.

On the other hand, it would be pretty awesome if she managed to knock Cocoon out of the sky in full CG glory. :lol:

[Wandering Hands]

She accidentally tosses a cigarette onto a fuel line.

Lulz ensue.

[Kokayi]

I agree with Ikkin.
Properly execute a dark story from the foe's point of view would be nice. But in order to keep from relating to them they'd have to be a psycho.

I always thought what happened to Seph was wrong. He had a breakdown trying to cope with his life being a lie and being shinrai's puppet. Zach likely would've helped him thru it if only they could communicate better.

My point is, in order to keep the villain role, you'd have to me what a lot of people might call an "asshole". He/She would have to be a megalomaniac so self absorbed that he/she would only interact with the world with their corrupt plans for it. A character like that would be two dimensional from start to finish. And after the hype and rush from doing evil died down, you'd be left with just another villain that was basically evil for the sake of evil. Because, giving that a reason for their desent into madness would make you, yet again, feel for them.

Though there are people who find super evil people as quite the "turn on". I've seen and spoken to women, for example, that really want to make love to Kefka. I wouldn't if I were them.

I digress. All and all, I say stick to the heroes. Have nice twists and turns and continue to have a message. The day the gameplay COMPLETELY steal the show from the plot is the day FFs, and likely Square, will die out.

I personally wouldn't mind an sci-fi/fantasy FF taking place on a series of space stations and planets (where to hop from planet to planet like SOs) and mix in an conglomerate of asian, african, native america, and arbian myths.

[Ikkin]

I agree with Ikkin.
Properly execute a dark story from the foe's point of view would be nice. But in order to keep from relating to them they'd have to be a psycho.

Technically, it wouldn't be "the foe" if you didn't play "the good guys" in the first place. ;) And it would be possible to play the darker side without requiring the player character to be a psycho - it just wouldn't be possible for that character to want to end the world and not be a psycho.


I always thought what happened to Seph was wrong. He had a breakdown trying to cope with his life being a lie and being shinrai's puppet. Zach likely would've helped him thru it if only they could communicate better.

Well, basically everyone we know pre-FFVII wound up completely messed up. =P Though Sephiroth probably had the most reasons to go nuts out of all of them. And not just because his life was a lie - Cloud managed to survive that somewhat intact, after all.

It'd actually be pretty interesting to see what made him who he wound up becoming. I'd bet that at least part of it is that he was trained to believe that he was superior to normal people from the beginning, which then got entirely twisted around by cognitive dissonance when it turned out that he was really a monster. Add in a week's worth of sleep deprivation and the presence of Jenova, and I doubt anything could have saved Sephiroth.

...which is on-topic, because it shows that there are some interesting possibilities to having a villain as the main character in a game, as long as he isn't evil through and through. =D I still don't think Squenix would be able to pull it off, though. xD


Though there are people who find super evil people as quite the "turn on". I've seen and spoken to women, for example, that really want to make love to Kefka. I wouldn't if I were them.

...I think you broke my brain. :blink:

[Lady~Vengeance]

On the other hand, it would be pretty awesome if she managed to knock Cocoon out of the sky in full CG glory. :lol:

that would be epic on so many levels :D

[cheesepizza]

...I think you broke my brain. :blink:

Mine too.. O_O

On subject: Maybe see more "O I'm causing pain to people... and lovin' it" stuff? Ok that would only work with a character who has history in the game... ie doesn't work with a new character.... Fangirls would love it =_=

[LOL]

She accidentally tosses a cigarette onto a fuel line.

Lulz ensue.

In which she incinerates her entire team and has fried chocobo for dinner that night.

Playing as the antagonist in a brand new game doesn't really always work as well. In many spin offs or sequels, you can play as the main game's antagonist but that is only after you have seen their crazy side and then the spin off game allows to sympathize with them rather than playing with them at once and only see it from a one sided view.

[Kokayi]

Also, Ikkin, I think CC and FF7 serve to let the players know that Seph wasn't just some fanservice villain. He had a heart and soul. He just showed weakness at the worst possible time. So sad. That and how Zach died... the way the DMW was messing up as he creeped closer to death. Brilliant work of art yet heart-wrenching.

Were it a villain with as much soul as they give heroes and lots of hints and possiblities for them to turn it all around, I definately play a FF villain game. But a new villain. All the ones so far, I'm too used to.

Cacoon's fall, is VERY possible. Lots of people say that in some ways, Lightning is an anti-hero. That she'll cause lots of pain and strife before she learns to except other people and not just care about the mission. In the beginning she seems like a killing machine. Cool as that is, it'll likely lead her to her death if she doesn't have even one person watching her back. I love how cool Cloud and Squall are, but even the most badass need help. Especial with villains like Mateus Palamecia rising from the depths of hell and control demons.

Also, LOL, sometimes even when the company may not intend to, they deliver a story so dark that people are turned off by it and still it as mindless violence or fanservice for gore or rebllion lovers. Take Sega's Shadow the Hedgehog games. He's respected by some but mostly seen as just an alternate dark version of Sonic and nothing more. I HONESTLY don't think that's all Sega wanted.

[Ikkin]

Also, Ikkin, I think CC and FF7 serve to let the players know that Seph wasn't just some fanservice villain. He had a heart and soul. He just showed weakness at the worst possible time. So sad. That and how Zach died... the way the DMW was messing up as he creeped closer to death. Brilliant work of art yet heart-wrenching.

Yeah, exactly. CC did a lot of things right with Sephiroth and Zack, and even started Squenix down in interesting path in regards to interactivity in plot-important scenes.


Were it a villain with as much soul as they give heroes and lots of hints and possiblities for them to turn it all around, I definately play a FF villain game. But a new villain. All the ones so far, I'm too used to.

Well, if they turned it all around by the end, you couldn't really say you were playing the villain. ;) Though I don't think it'd really work plot-wise to have a fully-corrupted character for very long - it'd be kind of hard to get players to want the same thing as a villain, because as soon as you manage to justify the actions enough to do that, the character would feel like less of a villain.


Cacoon's fall, is VERY possible. Lots of people say that in some ways, Lightning is an anti-hero. That she'll cause lots of pain and strife before she learns to except other people and not just care about the mission. In the beginning she seems like a killing machine. Cool as that is, it'll likely lead her to her death if she doesn't have even one person watching her back. I love how cool Cloud and Squall are, but even the most bad*** need help. Especial with villains like Mateus Palamecia rising from the depths of hell and control demons.

Well, I dunno if Lightning's really in danger of not having people to watch her back - she seems to draw them to her even when she really doesn't want them, considering Sazh's insistence on following her in the demo, and that scene in the trailer where Snow decides to show up to "save" her. ;)

She's almost certain to cause lots of pain and strife, though, I agree. She's been called the "enemy of mankind" in some of the scans, and I'd imagine she'd have to do some pretty crazy things to deserve a title like that. :P I'd think that would be more down to her having a different interpretation of the Focus, though.

Going back to the idea of Cocoon's fall - I'm starting to wonder whether Lightning might be responsible for the fact that, when we see Cocoon from the outside, it looks like it's melting at the bottom, and there's a large portion of the shell that seems to be missing from the visible side. It could just have been built that way, but it seems kind of suspicious.


Also, LOL, sometimes even when the company may not intend to, they deliver a story so dark that people are turned off by it and still it as mindless violence or fanservice for gore or rebllion lovers. Take Sega's Shadow the Hedgehog games. He's respected by some but mostly seen as just an alternate dark version of Sonic and nothing more. I HONESTLY don't think that's all Sega wanted.

Heh, that's true. XD There's an annoying tendency towards just adding a bit of brutality, promiscuity, and profanity and calling it a day whenever a company tries to make something "dark" and "mature," and it always tends to wind up with a result that's kind of useless.

They'd probably get better results if they realized that the external trappings of darkness are empty, in and of themselves. It's the internal psychology that leads to those things (the darkness of the heart, if you will ;) ) that's the interesting bit.

[cheesepizza]

Also, Ikkin, I think CC and FF7 serve to let the players know that Seph wasn't just some fanservice villain. He had a heart and soul. He just showed weakness at the worst possible time. So sad. That and how Zach died... the way the DMW was messing up as he creeped closer to death. Brilliant work of art yet heart-wrenching.

Yea I agree D: I love what they did with the DMW in the end... god it was so sad DX (EFFING ANGEAL HASN'T GIVEN ME HIS LAST MEMORY GOD DAMMIT) CC was done very well IMO, don't see how people can decide to pass over it coz you can't skip the cutscenes wtf?

What if Lightning dies :wtf:

Am I the smoker people are referring to? lulz

[Kokayi]

The "enemy of mankind" was always thought of by me as a prapaganda phrase Cacoon new anchors came up with too get the public to shun her. Citizen likely do hate her unwanted to give up there lap of luster in Caccon and spread equality along the planes of Pulse. But by the end of the game, a goo portion may come along to her side.

One thing I did respect from Sazh is that though scare, at least he's trying. I bet there are those who are stronger than him that just give up and join up with Caccon's government's ideals.

The missing piece may be a artistic attempt at foreshadowing. Like say their time is coming. That they will soon be dethrone. (I'm kind of getting excited again talking about it like this.) Or if not that, maybe it's to say visually that "some have tried and fail to do more than wound the giant". Like Cacoon leaves it unfixed to say to the citizen: "you can wound us, but will still stand taller than insects like you."

Dark themes get ruined sometimes, yes. Like in Persona 3. Not that it's all over a bad game. In no way is it that. But there was a time where a female demon had the letters B and J painted on her chest. Why? Just for the hell of it? *sighs* Not to mention she looked like a cross between a whore and a demonic clown.

"They'd probably get better results if they realized that the external trappings of darkness are empty, in and of themselves. It's the internal psychology that leads to those things (the darkness of the heart, if you will ;) ) that's the interesting bit." ~ IKKIN

Bravo. Well said.

@ Cheese
I don't like when the leading cast dies at the end. If a character dies and it provokes the rest to get guts and do more with their lives to save the masses, good. But to just have a character die just to close with a sense of sorrow or hopelessness... if feels like the character you love was stolen from you left only as a mere memory. A good memory, but a memory none the less.

IMO if you have a PSP or will soon get one, play CC at least once. That what I did with Vincent's game. I played it strictly for story's sake. And am still loving those final scenes where Vince goes blow for blow with his own brand of rivals. But of course I KEPT CC. I wasn't that good at Vince's game, so I didn't keep that.

[Ikkin]

The "enemy of mankind" was always thought of by me as a prapaganda phrase Cacoon new anchors came up with too get the public to shun her. Citizen likely do hate her unwanted to give up there lap of luster in Caccon and spread equality along the planes of Pulse. But by the end of the game, a goo portion may come along to her side.

Well, the phrase came from promotional materials, not a quote from a character. So, presumably, when she's called "the enemy of mankind, who will ruin the world" it's from an outside perspective, not the biased view of the government of Cocoon.

I still want to know what they mean by that, though. XD It's not exactly a normal goal for a protagonist.


One thing I did respect from Sazh is that though scare, at least he's trying. I bet there are those who are stronger than him that just give up and join up with Caccon's government's ideals.

Yeah, and courage is always more impressive when you actually need to overcome fear, rather than just lacking it outright. ;)


The missing piece may be a artistic attempt at foreshadowing. Like say their time is coming. That they will soon be dethrone. (I'm kind of getting excited again talking about it like this.) Or if not that, maybe it's to say visually that "some have tried and fail to do more than wound the giant". Like Cacoon leaves it unfixed to say to the citizen: "you can wound us, but will still stand taller than insects like you."

Well, from the little bits of information they released about the premise, the Purge is the Sanctum's reaction to what they perceive as a threat to Cocoon's stability - they're afraid someone's going to try to take it out of the sky, and decided the best way to avoid that was to deport everyone who had any contact with Pulse to avoid it.

And then there's that whole bit in Vanille's narration about "the beginning of the end [of the world]," which is definitely foreshadowing something.


Dark themes get ruined sometimes, yes. Like in Persona 3. Not that it's all over a bad game. In no way is it that. But there was a time where a female demon had the letters B and J painted on her chest. Why? Just for the hell of it? *sighs*

Because people like to think they're watching/playing/whatever something dark, but most don't actually like to be made to look at the nastier side of human nature if it's not intended to appeal to those same parts.


"They'd probably get better results if they realized that the external trappings of darkness are empty, in and of themselves. It's the internal psychology that leads to those things (the darkness of the heart, if you will ;) ) that's the interesting bit." ~ IKKIN

Bravo. Well said.

Thanks. ^_^

That's something I find really interesting, the idea of getting inside of characters who aren't Good Guys with a few token flaws, and who instead have to struggle with their own human tendencies (and sometimes fall to them) in order to do the best they can in messed-up situations.

Of course, those kind of things usually wind up looking more like this (http://hollylisle.com/fm/Workshops/suckitudinous.html), which isn't really all that useful. =P


@ Cheese
I don't like when the leading cast dies at the end. If a character dies and it provokes the rest to get guts and do more with their lives to save the masses, good. But to just have a character die just to close with a sense of sorrow or hopelessness... if feels like the character you love was stolen from you left only as a mere memory. A good memory, but a memory none the less.

Well, sometimes, I think a character dying might just be a fitting end for that character, even if it doesn't push the others to do anything. Sometimes, it's just hard to imagine how some characters would be able to live, considering what they went through and the fact that they're now someone who has no place in the world that they helped save.

[Kokayi]

I was just thinking it'd be cool if the Holy Gov denounced her to get the public on their side. I don't have any facts to that effect.

Most character don't SHOW fear but are in fact scare. It more admirable that way. I think Cloud said lots of times he was scared but fought on because the people important to him were in harm's way.

Oreba seems a lot more deep that most cute girls in RPGs.

"That's something I find really interesting, the idea of getting inside of characters who aren't Good Guys with a few token flaws, and who instead have to struggle with their own human tendencies (and sometimes fall to them) in order to do the best they can in messed-up situations."

That's why I liked Cloud. He wasn't just cool. He struggled. He had times when he'd rise and fall. Being a person who's been thru times when I hated things I've done, I can relate.

Not to put you on the spot but can you think of a character that lost their place in the world after saving it? In FFs or otherwise. I know there was a character at one point like that. One that saving everyone and people said to him/her "So what we still hate you. That changes nothing." Or rather the fact that they saved the world was unknown to all. Like in Wild ARMS 3.

[Ikkin]

I was just thinking it'd be cool if the Holy Gov denounced her to get the public on their side. I don't have any facts to that effect.

Ah, okay. XD I thought you were saying that the "enemy of mankind" thing was just something that the Sanctum came up with and therefore wasn't trustworthy.

I agree with you, though. There's no reason why that shouldn't be the case. ;)


Most character don't SHOW fear but are in fact scare. It more admirable that way. I think Cloud said lots of times he was scared but fought on because the people important to him were in harm's way.

Heh, that's true - though I'm not sure it's very realistic for some characters to be quite so calm as they are.


"That's something I find really interesting, the idea of getting inside of characters who aren't Good Guys with a few token flaws, and who instead have to struggle with their own human tendencies (and sometimes fall to them) in order to do the best they can in messed-up situations."

That's why I liked Cloud. He wasn't just cool. He struggled. He had times when he'd rise and fall. Being a person who's been thru times when I hated things I've done, I can relate.

While I agree that Cloud is an interesting guy, I don't think he's really the best example of what I was talking about. ^^;

The thing about Cloud is that his struggles are, in a large part, caused by Sephiroth and Jenova. Almost all (if not all) of the things that he regretted the most were things that he wouldn't have done if he were a normal person and not being used like a puppet.

What I'm talking about are characters who lash out at people they care about on their own accord, who convince themselves that some rather nasty things are all for the greater good, who are clearly hypocritical in ways that cause problems, who have personal prejudices (and not necessarily the usual kind), who allow themselves to dehumanize their enemies, who consider themselves deserving of special treatment and act accordingly, who refuse to accept any culpability for bad things that they do and blame others instead, or who act cruelly towards others to hide their own insecurities.


Not to put you on the spot but can you think of a character that lost their place in the world after saving it? In FFs or otherwise. I know there was a character at one point like that. One that saving everyone and people said to him/her "So what we still hate you. That changes nothing." Or rather the fact that they saved the world was unknown to all. Like in Wild ARMS 3.

Hmm... Well, let's see. There's a few types of characters who fit it, so I'll have to do one for each:
- The type who was simply changed so much by his journey that he can't fit into normal society is probably exemplified by Frodo from Lord of the Rings.
- The type who wouldn't be able to redeem himself in the eyes of others and therefore dies heroically so the story doesn't have to deal with that is a trope of its own (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionEqualsDeath) with dozens of different examples. Though it's usually used for the villains rather than the heroes.

I'm not sure if the "no one knew they saved the world" thing is really applicable here, though. That'd probably just make it easier to have a normal life afterwards. =P

[stalemate666]

Ah, okay. XD I thought you were saying that the "enemy of mankind" thing was just something that the Sanctum came up with and therefore wasn't trustworthy.

I agree with you, though. There's no reason why that shouldn't be the case. ;)




Heh, that's true - though I'm not sure it's very realistic for some characters to be quite so calm as they are.




While I agree that Cloud is an interesting guy, I don't think he's really the best example of what I was talking about. ^^;

The thing about Cloud is that his struggles are, in a large part, caused by Sephiroth and Jenova. Almost all (if not all) of the things that he regretted the most were things that he wouldn't have done if he were a normal person and not being used like a puppet.

What I'm talking about are characters who lash out at people they care about on their own accord, who convince themselves that some rather nasty things are all for the greater good, who are clearly hypocritical in ways that cause problems, who have personal prejudices (and not necessarily the usual kind), who allow themselves to dehumanize their enemies, who consider themselves deserving of special treatment and act accordingly, who refuse to accept any culpability for bad things that they do and blame others instead, or who act cruelly towards others to hide their own insecurities.




Hmm... Well, let's see. There's a few types of characters who fit it, so I'll have to do one for each:
- The type who was simply changed so much by his journey that he can't fit into normal society is probably exemplified by Frodo from Lord of the Rings.
- The type who wouldn't be able to redeem himself in the eyes of others and therefore dies heroically so the story doesn't have to deal with that is a trope of its own (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionEqualsDeath) with dozens of different examples. Though it's usually used for the villains rather than the heroes.

I'm not sure if the "no one knew they saved the world" thing is really applicable here, though. That'd probably just make it easier to have a normal life afterwards. =P
Spiderman is probably the best example your looking for, Spidy did a lot of things for the greater good (especially when he was in his black suit) and even though he saved so many people still hated him for the things he did, that struggle is what kept the comics going and not just not labeled as another superhero thing, X-men might be a good example too

[Kokayi]

Yeah the X-Men are, to this day, still seen as freaks in their own comic for the most part. Thanks for that.

The reason I'd never want to live a normal life after saving the world, at least not for long, would be I'd always assume I was needed elsewhere. Yeah I saved the world, but what about the little guy. The guy scratching to survive being opressed on a smaller scale in his own town. I'd use the respect I'd gained from saving the world to step in and help those kind of people.

"What I'm talking about are characters who lash out at people they care about on their own accord, who convince themselves that some rather nasty things are all for the greater good, who are clearly hypocritical in ways that cause problems, who have personal prejudices (and not necessarily the usual kind), who allow themselves to dehumanize their enemies, who consider themselves deserving of special treatment and act accordingly, who refuse to accept any culpability for bad things that they do and blame others instead, or who act cruelly towards others to hide their own insecurities." ~ Ikkin

Yeah, but lots of character never fully lose most of these short comings. A lot of time being they would quite be the character we fell in love with without these flaws. They try to be better people, but never quite extinquish their insecurities. Like Albel in Star Ocean "3", he joined Fayt and began to respect their cause, but he didn't stop being foul-mouthed and haughty. What kind of character would he be if he began to be nice all and considerate all the time? He'd turn into a different person. Becoming like whatever character already showed compassion to begin with.

[Ikkin]

The reason I'd never want to live a normal life after saving the world, at least not for long, would be I'd always assume I was needed elsewhere. Yeah I saved the world, but what about the little guy. The guy scratching to survive being opressed on a smaller scale in his own town. I'd use the respect I'd gained from saving the world to step in and help those kind of people.

Heh, that's true. Though, it's pretty far removed from the kind of characters I'd started out talking about - the kind who simply can't fit into the world in any way anymore, because the whole world changed around them while they were out adventuring.


"What I'm talking about are characters who lash out at people they care about on their own accord, who convince themselves that some rather nasty things are all for the greater good, who are clearly hypocritical in ways that cause problems, who have personal prejudices (and not necessarily the usual kind), who allow themselves to dehumanize their enemies, who consider themselves deserving of special treatment and act accordingly, who refuse to accept any culpability for bad things that they do and blame others instead, or who act cruelly towards others to hide their own insecurities." ~ Ikkin

Yeah, but lots of character never fully lose most of these short comings. A lot of time being they would quite be the character we fell in love with without these flaws. They try to be better people, but never quite extinquish their insecurities. Like Albel in Star Ocean "3", he joined Fayt and began to respect their cause, but he didn't stop being foul-mouthed and haughty. What kind of character would he be if he began to be nice all and considerate all the time? He'd turn into a different person. Becoming like whatever character already showed compassion to begin with.

Did I ever say that I wanted those kind of characters to change and lose their flaws? ;) They're interesting to me because they have them. Because that makes them more human.

The only thing that bothers me is that, in a lot of cases, having normal human flaws is only acceptable if the character's supposed to be bad, or at least anti-heroic. =P