Install FFXIII to the XBOX HDD: Yes or No?

[Kuja Las Vegas]

Okay folks, first a bit of history:

FF7: 3 CD-ROMS (PS1); 4 CD-ROMS (PC)
FF8: 4 CD-ROMS (PS1); 5 CD-ROMS (PC)
FF9: 4 CD-ROMS (PS1)

I own these games (and I can take pictures of my CD-ROMS and post them if you don't believe FF8 PC has 5 discs). I have extensively researched how the CD-ROM process worked back when they made them. Basically, the entire game is on each CD-ROM for FF7 - FF9 (PS1). Obviously, on the PC version the entire game is on the install disc, and just the cinematics are on the play discs.

In the PS1 versions, the only difference is what CGI cinematics will play. Each CD-ROM has different cinematics (FF7 opening is on Disc 1, FF7 ending is on Disc 3), but some CGI cinematics have to be duplicated on each disk. For example, in FF7 you can go to Junon on any disc. There is a brief cinematic where Cloud rides an elevator up in Junon. That cinematic is on every disc (1, 2, and 3).

FF8 for the PC (which I also own) actually came with 5 cd-roms. One installation disc, and four play discs. FF7 for the PC (I own that too) came with 4 discs, one installation and three play discs. Needless to say, the PS1 equivalents don't need installation discs, so just subtract one from the disc count. Instead, the entire game files are duplicated on each disc (that is why the world map is the same on each disc - you just can't go to certain places based on the storyline).

Times have changed, and the XBOX / PS3 are basically giant personal computers that you hook up to a TV or monitor, they no longer are dedicated consoles that do just gaming and nothing else (like the PS1).

It has been said elsewhere that FFXIII might need 4 to 5 BDs for the XBOX 360 port. I think it would be a giant pain to duplicate all the game files on each BD, and also duplicate minor cinematics (like generic elevator up and down) on each BD. Whether or not the game is linear like FFX or non-linear like FFXII is also a factor, as the more non-linear it is, the more data duplication you would need. But IMHO, the more non-linear it is, the more fun and replay value there is. How many times can you re-play FFX with all the forced cutscenes?

What I think would work quite well for them is to have an option to install the entire game to the XBOX 360 Hard drive. Granted, it'd take up a shitload of space, and people with the $199 XBOX 360 would be screwed because it has very little HDD space. But if you install the entire game to the hard drive and just leave the cinematics on the discs, then hell, you'd only need I'm guessing one install disc and three cinematic "play discs."

Otherwise, they're going to need 4 to 5 BDs, duplicate the entire game data or most of it on each BD (on the last disc when you finally get the airship, you can fly around the entire world and visit each location - that means the entire game data must be present on each disc).

[Wandering Hands]

... BDs? ... On a 360?

... Right-o, then.

[doomed_soul89]

of course the port is going to be a pain, there only doing it cuz of how much Microsoft is paying them and the actual ppl developing it had no say, but I disagree with the non-linear thing, I like linear games better, and there the ones you want to restart the non-linear ones there's no point cuz you can just go back, FFX is the game I replayed the most actually (not counting original sonics and what not) and the first 3d spiderman had a certain charm that the open world ones didn't, there both good but you get my point, and yea the developers are probably going to have to do alot of work they don't want to on the 360 port

[Jaggerjack]

Since when does the 360 has BD? :wtf: (cause i assume you know what BD is....right? :cookie: )

[Rokuro]

I don't have a 360 (yet) but it does use DVDs still.
If FFXIII was 5 discs then it would have to take up half the harddrive wouln't it (if you had the 60gb)?

[Astrozombie]

Install size does not = actual game size. You still use the disk, it just loads faster.

And "should there be an option."

I believe there's an option for that for every new game, so yes, there will be that option.

Also, rofl @ you thinking it'l use 5 disks.

Guess what, big RPGs come out on 360 all the time. It'l use one disk.

[Shiranui Reborn]

why not?
if it's an option it shouldn't bother anyone
:wtf:

[Aurelia]

Also, rofl @ you thinking it'l use 5 disks.

Guess what, big RPGs come out on 360 all the time. It'l use one disk.


Don't quote me on this, but didn't Lost Odyssey have three disks? :wtf: Sure it's not five, but it's not one either.

[doomed_soul89]

Install size does not = actual game size. You still use the disk, it just loads faster.

And "should there be an option."

I believe there's an option for that for every new game, so yes, there will be that option.

Also, rofl @ you thinking it'l use 5 disks.

Guess what, big RPGs come out on 360 all the time. It'l use one disk.

lol you really think FFXIII will be on one disk for 360, just lol you obviously have no idea what your talking about lol

[ExodusVII]

Lost Odyssey is 4 discs. jRPGs tend to have loads of cinematic cutscenes, CGI and drawn out story sections which take up loads of space. They no longer fit on 1 disc this generation. Games like Mass Effect and Oblivion (wRPGS) only get away with 1 disc because they are heavily compressed and all cinematics are run on the in game engine. Of course, on the PS3 they should be able to fit on 1 disc due to the 50gb capacity over the dvds 8.5gb cap.

[Daemon]

Can we just settle this, at least until the game actually comes out or more concrete details emerge?
In all likelyhood, a game expected to make full use of a BD will, with the possible exception of very effective compression, require more than one DVD.

[doomed_soul89]

Can we just settle this, at least until the game actually comes out or more concrete details emerge?
In all likelyhood, a game expected to make full use of a BD will, with the possible exception of very effective compression, require more than one DVD.
no there going to use very effective compression and multiple disks, you have to remember the developers never intended to port it when they started making it, so it wasn't until years into it's development that they start to do anything to make it easier to port later (which they have even said will take away from the game somewhat, no details on what) so there's probably like 20 gigs with compression in the first half of the game lol

[chaosblade77]

Install size does not = actual game size. You still use the disk, it just loads faster.

And "should there be an option."

I believe there's an option for that for every new game, so yes, there will be that option.

Also, rofl @ you thinking it'l use 5 disks.

Guess what, big RPGs come out on 360 all the time. It'l use one disk.

RPGs:

Lost Odyssey: 4 discs.
Star Ocean: 3 discs.
Blue Dragon: 3 discs.
Last Remnant: 2 discs.
Infinite Undiscovery: 2 discs.
Tales of Vesperia: 1 disc.

With all of the CG that this game will have, a single disc is impossible. Five is probably too high, three discs seems like a safe bet, possibly four depending on decisions regarding compression.

I don't plan on getting the 360 version, but for those of you that do (that live in NA at least) I sure hope you get better packaging than previous multidisc games with the ghetto paper sleeves and disc stacking.


As for the topic at hand, I don't see a point in not installing if you have the space for it. It reduces wear and tear on the laser and you won't have to worry about the system eating your disc, which is a known issue with the 360. If only Microsoft had set up their installs so that you could put in disc 1 and play through all of the rest of the discs without changing.

[Neal]

Every 360 game can be installed, it doesn't need an option built in.

[namyrb]

I like the installation method FFx13Fanatic mentioned. Act as if it were a PC version and use 1 disk as the install disk while the rest contain the cinematics. The only flaw I ever saw, which was probably due to the power of my pc at the time, was that I'd be playing and a movie was about to start... after about 5 seconds of frozen screen the video would finally kick in after the CD had sped up.... again this was probably just due to my PC. I'm sure this isn't a problem anymore...

[doomed_soul89]

Why the amped up normal graphics and maps, I don't think that will be an option anymore

[Astrozombie]

Why the amped up normal graphics and maps, I don't think that will be an option anymore

What makes you think the graphics/maps are any more "amped up" than any game on the 360.

[doeman]

Lost Odyssey is 4 discs. jRPGs tend to have loads of cinematic cutscenes, CGI and drawn out story sections which take up loads of space. They no longer fit on 1 disc this generation. Games like Mass Effect and Oblivion (wRPGS) only get away with 1 disc because they are heavily compressed and all cinematics are run on the in game engine. Of course, on the PS3 they should be able to fit on 1 disc due to the 50gb capacity over the dvds 8.5gb cap.
RPGs:

Lost Odyssey: 4 discs.
Star Ocean: 3 discs.
Blue Dragon: 3 discs.
Last Remnant: 2 discs.
Infinite Undiscovery: 2 discs.
Tales of Vesperia: 1 disc.

With all of the CG that this game will have, a single disc is impossible. Five is probably too high, three discs seems like a safe bet, possibly four depending on decisions regarding compression.

I don't plan on getting the 360 version, but for those of you that do (that live in NA at least) I sure hope you get better packaging than previous multidisc games with the ghetto paper sleeves and disc stacking.


As for the topic at hand, I don't see a point in not installing if you have the space for it. It reduces wear and tear on the laser and you won't have to worry about the system eating your disc, which is a known issue with the 360. If only Microsoft had set up their installs so that you could put in disc 1 and play through all of the rest of the discs without changing.
"The demo of long awaited RPG blockbuster Final Fantasy XIII has unveiled an unpleasant truth for Xbox 360 owners: the demo alone is 5GB, more than the capacity of a single layer DVD, and of course the full game will be many times larger."
NSFW website
http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/04/17/final-fantasy-xiii-nightmare-looms-for-xbox-owners/

^^^check out the link to see the image interpretation of what 360 owners might have to deal with.

how many cgi movies did the demo have? 1 right? if the actual game is bound to have many more of them, then how the hell will this game fit on 4-5 x360 discs? it's gotta be way more than that. unless i'm missing out on some piece of information here...

microsoft isn't that stupid to sign up with a game that's going to be 30 discs long. there HAS to be a way around it. dumbing down the cgi graphics? what about these "dual layer" dvd's? has any 360 game used them yet?

[chaosblade77]

"The demo of long awaited RPG blockbuster Final Fantasy XIII has unveiled an unpleasant truth for Xbox 360 owners: the demo alone is 5GB, more than the capacity of a single layer DVD, and of course the full game will be many times larger."
NSFW website
http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/04/17/final-fantasy-xiii-nightmare-looms-for-xbox-owners/

^^^check out the link to see the image interpretation of what 360 owners might have to deal with.

how many cgi movies did the demo have? 1 right? if the actual game is bound to have many more of them, then how the hell will this game fit on 4-5 x360 discs? it's gotta be way more than that. unless i'm missing out on some piece of information here...

microsoft isn't that stupid to sign up with a game that's going to be 30 discs long. there HAS to be a way around it. dumbing down the cgi graphics? what about these "dual layer" dvd's? has any 360 game used them yet?

The size of the demo isn't an effective way to measure the size of the final game. If one hour of the final game is going to amount to 5-6GB, that means this game is going to be limited to roughly 15 hours even on the PS3 including any reused assets, unless the game takes place in a really, really small world. I doubt anybody here thinks that will be the case.

The final game will be compressed more than the demo was; the final build as a whole will certainly be more efficient in terms of disc space.

Not to mention, there are multiplatform games on the PS3 that are as high (or higher) than the capacity of two dual layer DVDs, yet the 360 version is on a single disc. DMC4 comes to mind, it's about 15GB on the PS3.

So the game could fill up a 50GB BD, but that doesn't necessarily mean the 360 version is going to be 7 discs. (50 / 7.5 GB size limit = ~6.5 discs rounds to 7).

And for the record, yes, many 360 games do use dual layer DVDs. If I'm not mistaken, all of the RPGs I listed in my previous post used dual layer discs.

[doomed_soul89]

What makes you think the graphics/maps are any more "amped up" than any game on the 360.

your right there probably lower the quality from the ps3 one for disk space purposes

[doeman]

The size of the demo isn't an effective way to measure the size of the final game. If one hour of the final game is going to amount to 5-6GB, that means this game is going to be limited to roughly 15 hours even on the PS3 including any reused assets, unless the game takes place in a really, really small world. I doubt anybody here thinks that will be the case.

The final game will be compressed more than the demo was; the final build as a whole will certainly be more efficient in terms of disc space.

Not to mention, there are multiplatform games on the PS3 that are as high (or higher) than the capacity of two dual layer DVDs, yet the 360 version is on a single disc. DMC4 comes to mind, it's about 15GB on the PS3.

So the game could fill up a 50GB BD, but that doesn't necessarily mean the 360 version is going to be 7 discs. (50 / 7.5 GB size limit = ~6.5 discs rounds to 7).

And for the record, yes, many 360 games do use dual layer DVDs. If I'm not mistaken, all of the RPGs I listed in my previous post used dual layer discs.
but what does dual layer mean??? that the disc has information on both sides of it??? like you flip it to continue playing the game? i've personally played LO, and you didn't have to "flip" the first disc over to continue the story. you went straight to the 2nd disc. what am i getting wrong here?

also didn't know that the compression on the disc of a demo and the final version would differ so much. but still, if the ps3 version of a cgi movie takes up X amount of space on a blu ray disc, then wouldn't it take up the same amount on a 360's dvd disc?

[Daemon]

but what does dual layer mean??? that the disc has information on both sides of it??? like you flip it to continue playing the game? i've personally played LO, and you didn't have to "flip" the first disc over to continue the story. you went straight to the 2nd disc. what am i getting wrong here?

Dual layer means that there are two layers of data on the one side of the disc, you're thinking of double sided. A lot of DvDs have it where they say 'transition may trigger a slight pause'.

also didn't know that the compression on the disc of a demo and the final version would differ so much. but still, if the ps3 version of a cgi movie takes up X amount of space on a blu ray disc, then wouldn't it take up the same amount on a 360's dvd disc?

Well, in the demo, IIRC the 5Gb report said that 4Gb was (uncompressed?) FMV, with only ~700Mb of actual game. Without compression, it would take up that amoutn of space,yes, but because of the size, it is certain it will be compressed, and possibly the PS3 will have compression also, if 2 FMV = 4Gb (?).

[doeman]

i'm guessing they didn't have time to compress the demo then? or they thought it was a needless effort.

[doomed_soul89]

but what does dual layer mean??? that the disc has information on both sides of it??? like you flip it to continue playing the game? i've personally played LO, and you didn't have to "flip" the first disc over to continue the story. you went straight to the 2nd disc. what am i getting wrong here?

also didn't know that the compression on the disc of a demo and the final version would differ so much. but still, if the ps3 version of a cgi movie takes up X amount of space on a blu ray disc, then wouldn't it take up the same amount on a 360's dvd disc?

here's a quote from wiki on dual layers

"A Dual Layer disc differs from its usual DVD counterpart by employing a second physical layer within the disc itself. The drive with Dual Layer capability accesses the second layer by shining the laser through the first semi-transparent layer. The layer change can exhibit a noticeable pause in some DVD players, up to several seconds.."

and as for the demo thing it's like impossible to tell, XII was 3 gigs total compared to 1 gig for the demo, but the cut scenes were few and far between and the maps were really generic and there was next to no battle animation, just mist chains, attack and magic comparing that to what we've seen of XIII I think it will be more then 3x the size of the demo, because they are going to enchance graphics from the demo too, so even with compression I'm guessing it will end at about 35-45 gigs on the disc after compression, but they will probably reduce graphics and maybe even take out a few cut scenes on the 360 version, so were looking at 4 discs

[Astrozombie]

The game engine is usually a bigger part of the full size. I'd say about 10-13 gigs.

Also, compression does not equal lower quality.

[Neal]

It does if you do a shit job of it, e.g. the cutscenes in Wanted and Quantum of Solace.

[Zezlar]

You do know there is an Install option for the Xbox 360 right? Takes FOREVER but it's still good. I always install my games if I can no matter on PS3 or 360. They will run smoother and thats better for me.