Lights Out in Gaza, News Blackout in US

[SUPER JAM]

Lights Out in Gaza, News Blackout in US

by Deena Guzder

Amnesty International and other human rights organizations have decried Israel's continued aerial bombing campaign as unlawful and denounced the killing of more than 300 Palestinians since 27 December, including scores of unarmed civilians not taking part in the hostilities. Israel's attacks on the densely populated Gaza Strip also elicited condemnation from numerous world politicians and sparked protests in global cities.
Despite international outcry over escalating violence, the U.S. mainstream media continues to privilege a prepackaged narrative in which Israel's actions are never disproportionate, never counterproductive and certainly never gratuitous. According to the mainstream media, the U.S. must continue uncompromisingly supporting Israel because the allegedly beleaguered democracy is held hostage by monomaniacal Islamofascists who are inherently evil. Promoting a paradigm in which Israel is always David up against Goliath, the U.S. media presents suffering Palestinians as expendable for the greater cause of Israel winning its epic struggle. To justify U.S.'s carte blanche to Israel, the mainstream media restricts American readers to an echo chamber in which the following claims are repeated ad nausem until they are mistaken for fact:

Israel has a legal and moral right to bomb Gaza out of defense Security concerns are not and never have been a tolerable justification for pre-emptive attacks. Israel's decision to bomb Gaza represents a major assault on the international rule of law. The law of occupation is one of the oldest and most developed branches of international humanitarian law. An occupying power is obliged to follow the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, which protects the civilian population. The United Nations Security Council held in 1979 that the Fourth Convention did apply in the territories seized by Israel in 1967. Article 48 of the additional protocol is clear that Israel, as an occupying power, has obligations: "The Parties to the conflict shall at all times distinguish between the civilian population and combatants and between civilian objects and military objectives and accordingly shall direct their operations only against military objective." The latest Israeli attacks come on top of a brutal siege of the Gaza Strip which has created a humanitarian catastrophe of dire proportions for Gaza's beleaguered Palestinian residents by restricting the provision of food, fuel, medicine, electricity, and other necessities of life. "International law is not observed with respect to Israeli policies towards the Gaza Strip, Israel continues to reinforce an occupation whose every element violates international humanitarian law, and particularly the Fourth Geneva Convention," notes Jeff Halper, an Israeli-American Anthropologist, author, lecturer, political activist, and co-founder and Coordinator of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions.
Israeli citizens live in constant fear of Hamas rockets Since 2005 Hamas has fired some 6,300 rockets from Gaza at Israel, killing 10 people.[1] (https://mail.google.com/a/commondreams.org/?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=1qygpcgurkovy#11e88ff2d67157ca_11e88bd61e469c3 1__ftn1) In just the last four days, Israel has reduced the Gaza Strip to rubble and killed over 300 Palestinians. During the ongoing four-decade-long brutal occupation of historic Palestine and the recent grotesquely inhumane blockade of Gaza, Palestinian deaths have far outnumbered Israeli deaths. Since September 29, 2000, approximately 123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians whereas 1,050 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis. Since September 29, 2000, a total of 1,062 Israelis and no fewer than 4,876 Palestinians were killed in the conflict.[2]
Hamas refuses to recognize the right of Israel to exist and has never made any concessions As Seth Ackerman of Fairness & Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR) notes, there is no need to euphemize Hamas' history of brutal tactics or its bellicose ideology, but Hamas has signaled its potential willingness to accept a two-state settlement and make other concessions to broker peace.[3] (https://mail.google.com/a/commondreams.org/?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=1qygpcgurkovy#11e88ff2d67157ca_11e88bd61e469c3 1__ftn3) Hamas has also made tentative offers of a long-term "hudna," or truce, albeit with less gusto than Israel demands.
Israel is only targeting Hamas headquarters Gaza, one of the most densely populated tracts of land in the world, is home to about 1.3m Palestinians, about 33% of whom live in United Nations-funded refugee camps.[4] (https://mail.google.com/a/commondreams.org/?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=1qygpcgurkovy#11e88ff2d67157ca_11e88bd61e469c3 1__ftn4) Avoiding civilian casualties in the Gaza Strip during aerial raids is comparable to trying to avoid such casualties in Washington DC, New York City or Los Angeles. "Because Gaza is so densely populated, there is no such thing as precision strike - you have glass, brick, shrapnel flying into people's homes," notes Ewa Jasiewicz, a volunteer with the Free Gaza Movement.[5]
Attacking Hamas will help Israel achieve security There is no doubt that the recent attacks will only embolden and multiply Israel's detractors. Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei issued a religious decree to Muslims around the world on Sunday, ordering them to defend Palestinians against Israel's attacks on Gaza. For a second day in Jordan, several thousand protesters gathered in Amman and burned Israeli and American flags.[6] (https://mail.google.com/a/commondreams.org/?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=1qygpcgurkovy#11e88ff2d67157ca_11e88bd61e469c3 1__ftn6) There were similar rallies in Egypt, Syria, Libya and Iraq with many calling for a firm response from their leaders. Hamas' military is barely dented by the Israeli attacks and, according to a poll by Israel's Channel 10 television station, only 6% of Israelis believe its governments aerial bombings will end Hamas' rocket attacks. [7]
The Bush administration has the implicit support of the international community in blaming Hamas "thugs" and applauding Israel's show of defense With the exception of the U.S. and her staunchest allies, the international community has largely condemned Israel's attacks. Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov called on Israel to "urgently halt" its military campaign. Japan's Foreign Minister Hirofumi Nakasone said, "Japan calls on Israel to exercise its utmost self-restraint." China's Vice-Premier Li Kequiang joined the voices urging a halt to violence and said, "The Chinese side is shocked and seriously concerned over the current military operations in Gaza that have caused a large number of death and injuries."[8] (https://mail.google.com/a/commondreams.org/?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=1qygpcgurkovy#11e88ff2d67157ca_11e88bd61e469c3 1__ftn8) Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi similarly stated, "Malaysia deplores the disproportionate use of military power by Israel against the people of Gaza." French President Nicolas Sarkozy, whose country holds the European Union presidency, told the Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas of his serious concerns about the escalating violence. UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon added his voice to the 15-member Security Council's call for an immediate end to hostilities and urged Israel to allow humanitarian aid into the poverty-stricken territory.[9] (https://mail.google.com/a/commondreams.org/?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=1qygpcgurkovy#11e88ff2d67157ca_11e88bd61e469c3 1__ftn9) Humanitarian organizations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch reiterate their call for an end to reckless and unlawful Israeli attacks against densely populated residential areas.
The attacks on Gaza are supported by the entire Jewish community Jewish Voice for Peace joins millions around the world, including the 1,000 Israelis who protested in the streets of Tel Aviv this weekend, in condemning ongoing Israeli attacks on Gaza. The organization calls for an immediate end to attacks on all civilians, whether Palestinian or Israeli. In the face of mounting deaths, several Israeli and American Jewish peace groups are protesting the recent air raids by demonstrating in the streets, petitioning their elected officials and directly reaching out to Palestinian civilians. Groups that are encouraging peace between Palestinians and Israelis include Rabbis for Human Rights, B'Tselem, Bat Shalom, Ta'ayush, Yesh-Gvul, Peace Gush Shalom Tikkun, and many others. While there is no consensus in the Jewish community on the recent Gaza air raids, the underreported efforts of the Jewish "left" is far from negligible; Jewish Voices of Peace claims more than 10,000 members and has been instrumental in drawing attention to the lopsided media coverage through their "Lights out in Gaza, News Blackout in U.S." campaign. Many of these Jewish peace activists are deeply religious and draw on the Torah to support their stand against Israel's attack on Gaza. The media has extensively covered the Israeli settlers who cheer on Israel's more hawkish actions, but little has been written on dissident Israeli Jews and their American Jewish sympathizers who are advocating a more peaceful, non-violent course.
The mainstream media is culpable for American's ongoing ignorance and knee-jerk loyalty to Israel. Instead of elucidating motives and contextualizing actions, reporters' biased diction obscures facts and editors' cursory commentary muddles logic. By de-historicizing the conflict, the media reduces Palestinians to stock-characters who reject generous olive branches offered by Israel in favor of advocating for the dissolution of the Jewish state. A column by Israeli Gideon Levy in Haaretz, entitled "The neighborhood bully strikes again," could never appear in a paper in the U.S nor could a single paragraph be uttered by any American politician, in either party, of any national prominence without damning consequences.[10] (https://mail.google.com/a/commondreams.org/?ui=2&view=bsp&ver=1qygpcgurkovy#11e88ff2d67157ca_11e88bd61e469c3 1__ftn10)
While visiting Israel in July, President-elect Barack Obama said, "If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I would do everything to stop that, and would expect Israel to do the same thing." The question remains, what would Obama do if his daughters were deprived of food, electricity, medical care, and human dignity? What would Obama do if his daughters were humiliated when they traveled, maimed when they walked away from bomb shelters and robbed of their childhoods? If Obama fails to answer these questions with humanity, we can expect 4 to 8 more years of President Bush's failed Middle East strategy.

Source : http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/12/30-10

YouTube - Israel launches missile attacks on Gaza - 27 Dec 08

[Sabin]

As a person that was born in the Middleeast, whith relatives still there I think I have a clue on whats going on there. I'll tell you right now that I hate war - but what can you do if the whole Middleeast wants to wipe your country out? Would you not defend yourself?

I know that the Palestinians are the ones that have most casualties, but they started this whole mess. If they had the same weapons Israel have, they would do as much damage. I do feel sorry for all the civilian that have died. It truly makes me sad to see children die from war.
The big problem is unfortunally that Jews and Muslims will always hate eachother. This is not the first, second or third time this has happened. They start "wars" like this every year. This has been going on for a longer time than I have even lived. One of the sides do something to the other side and the war is on. People die and then they stop like a year. What makes this whole deal is that there are other countries involved. Iran being the leader in the shadows. Iran and Israel is more or less arch enemies. What Iran wants and more or less any muslim country in the Middleeast wants is to wipe out Israel. It is as simple as that.

You may think I'm rambling, but I know very well how the situation is down there. I've seen the bombings, we have hidden in basements for days. I can tell you that it wasn't pleasant. I'm so glad I don't live in that region anymore. It was fucking hell. Complaining and saying that Israel is the evil in this war is easy for people in peaceful countries. You can never know how the situation is.
Even if they stop this war, it is only temporary. They will start again in a month a year or even ten years. It doesn't matter when, but they will start all over again.

Last year one of my friends went to Lebanon to see some of his family. After two weeks the war started between Lebanon and Israel. Hisbollah were the ones attacking Israel that time. Iran being the ones with the plan. What did Israel do? They defended themselves as they are doing now. This time it is Hamaz. The other islamic group Fatah are not involved and left alone. This matter is so complicated it is hard to understand everything for an outsider.
I hope that there will be peace in that area and war will never break out again but those are naive dreams.

This war is all about religion. Muslims versus Jews. That is the sad truth and as a religious person this breaks my heart. I have friends from many different religions and we all agree that starting a war over religion is one of the worst things you can do. Unfortunately the mentality in the middleeast is very old. It's like you're not living in our time.

[DarkWan]

As a person that was born in the Middleeast, whith relatives still there I think I have a clue on whats going on there. I'll tell you right now that I hate war - but what can you do if the whole Middleeast wants to wipe your country out? Would you not defend yourself?

I know that the Palestinians are the ones that have most casualties, but they started this whole mess. If they had the same weapons Israel have, they would do as much damage. I do feel sorry for all the civilian that have died. It truly makes me sad to see children die from war.
The big problem is unfortunally that Jews and Muslims will always hate eachother. This is not the first, second or third time this has happened. They start "wars" like this every year. This has been going on for a longer time than I have even lived. One of the sides do something to the other side and the war is on. People die and then they stop like a year. What makes this whole deal is that there are other countries involved. Iran being the leader in the shadows. Iran and Israel is more or less arch enemies. What Iran wants and more or less any muslim country in the Middleeast wants is to wipe out Israel. It is as simple as that.

You may think I'm rambling, but I know very well how the situation is down there. I've seen the bombings, we have hidden in basements for days. I can tell you that it wasn't pleasant. I'm so glad I don't live in that region anymore. It was fucking hell. Complaining and saying that Israel is the evil in this war is easy for people in peaceful countries. You can never know how the situation is.
Even if they stop this war, it is only temporary. They will start again in a month a year or even ten years. It doesn't matter when, but they will start all over again.

Last year one of my friends went to Lebanon to see some of his family. After two weeks the war started between Lebanon and Israel. Hisbollah were the ones attacking Israel that time. Iran being the ones with the plan. What did Israel do? They defended themselves as they are doing now. This time it is Hamaz. The other islamic group Fatah are not involved and left alone. This matter is so complicated it is hard to understand everything for an outsider.
I hope that there will be peace in that area and war will never break out again but those are naive dreams.

This war is all about religion. Muslims versus Jews. That is the sad truth and as a religious person this breaks my heart. I have friends from many different religions and we all agree that starting a war over religion is one of the worst things you can do. Unfortunately the mentality in the middleeast is very old. It's like you're not living in our time.


defending themselves (Israel) doesn't give them the right to Kill thousands of Muslim children and thousands of innocent people there.

Be strong to the ones who start attacking, to the ones who have power not to the powerless and weak people (Children and Women).

No one on the earth will take this no one on the earth will handle this.it's very awful..it's so painful to see people dying everyday just because the heartless Jewish-soldiers!! where is the humanity?

I mean fight Hamas not children!!!

[Loremazd]

There is not a morally right side in this conflict, so don't invent one.

[DarkWan]

There is not a morally right side in this conflict, so don't invent one.

I'm not with any of them. I'm with those innocent children!

[Saudude]

*sigh* This war has been going on for ages, unless someone actually steps up to the issue, it'll be like this for a long, long time. Sabin's basically summarized it, however:

Unfortunately the mentality in the middleeast is very old. It's like you're not living in our time.

I had to make a note on this. I actually agreed on everything you wrote until these last two sentences have made your paragraphs fall down. This is by far the most stereotypical way of thinking. Judging a whole region by just one country. If I called all of Europe now "retards" because of Germany back in the world war days, it wouldn't make much sense now would it? The "mentality" in the middle east is not old at all, as if you had traveled anywhere but that part you would've known.

[Nagase]

Be strong to the ones who start attacking, to the ones who have power not to the powerless and weak people (Children and Women).

No one on the earth will take this no one on the earth will handle this.it's very awful..it's so painful to see people dying everyday just because the heartless Jewish-soldiers!! where is the humanity?


America has been bombing buildings and killing civilians since they got into the Middle East, but that's okay because it's "collateral damage", but as soon as Israel does it, it's some sort of small scale genocide? Wake up.

The only difference between what Israel are doing and what America are doing is that Israel aren't trying to hide it, and secondly, it's not America!

Good for Israel, it's about time they stopped eating all the bullshit Gaza has had to offer. I'm not one for civilians dying but that place needs flattening.

defending themselves (Israel) doesn't give them the right to Kill thousands of Muslim children and thousands of innocent people there.

I mean fight Hamas not children!!!

Yes it does. Put it like this.

1 suicide bomber (Just pawns in scale of things) = A possible 20+ deaths. :(

Now that suicide bomber is mixed in with let's say, a crowd of civilians. Now, either way, he's going to kill civilians OR brainwash more civilians into blowing themselves up.

Add up the numbers.

Yes you could easily march troops into Gaza, but tell me, why would that be a huge mistake? :)

[AT23]

Sabin,

Although I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with you on other threads, I do appreciate your insight and experiences. Thanks for the info. I'm sorry you've had to suffer though the war.

All I can really say at this point is, yeah, they do hate each other a lot. But sometime, sooner or later, there has to be a "break" with all this conflict. Personally, I'm hoping that one day, they can come to some kind of agreement or compromise and stop killing each other. I know, it's easy for an outsider for me to say that, but honestly I don't believe that violence solves issues always. I would rather they be handled in a milder manner.

[Mogi]

The only "bad" side there is Hamas, not the Palestinians or the Israelites. Hamas hide themselves among their own innocent(Palestinians) people and put them in danger. Israel has no choice. Which brings me to the point that war is never good; however, a neccesity to defend the innocent (like those who died in Isreal).

[finalmattasy]

My personal, presumed relatively uneducated answers to the points-

#1- If a group of people named Hamas are violent toward another group of people named Israel and the first group is bent to remain violent, and this commitment to violence is not being dealt with by Hamas' "peaceful" countrymen and government, then the Israeli people have no choice but to impose ample measures to deal with the threat.

#2- Hmmm, 6,300 rockets being fired at the people whom I am in charge of protecting...hmmm nobody is doing enough to deal with these people who are firing rockets at my people...hmmm I cannot allow this to happen. end of story. Even if I kill many more of their children I must stop any unyeilding threat. If the palestinian government would (or could) do something to stop these missiles and deaths being fired at Iraelis THAT WOULD BE FREAKIN' GREAT!! But they can't or wont. What can I do... defend my people. Don't matter if it's 6300 rockets, 63 rockets or 6.3; what matters is the unending motivation of Israel's attackers.

#3- If Hamas wants to be the big generous hand in this then they should lay down arms. The point is that until these apparently peaceful ideals where presented to Israel the exact extreme opposite was expressed and I would assume continues to be expressed by many of the leaders who would call themselves members of Hamas. Israel didn't and (i assume) doesn't have the edict of "deny the right to exist." If you've been playing a killing game you gotta take major measures to convey the fact that you intend peace. Complete surrender to the ruling Palestinian government and the laying down of arms is entirely sensible in light of the stances that have been taken by Hamas if peace is really desired.

4. I completely agree with the rebuttal of this point. All the more reason to understand that civilian casualties are to be expected if violence is needed to quell such a deliberate and unwavering people and ideal (Hamas).

5.- I agree with the angle of these apparent facts as well. Though the alternative continues to be an unsolved issue which results in the death of Israeli's. As I have already said, the numbers of deaths don't matter, Israeli government has a responsibility to defend it's people. The thing that really sux is that Palestine isn't as willing to put the gun to Hamas.

6. and 7.- Both of these do a great job of showing how many many people (people much smarter and more well informed than anybody who is likely to post on FF13.net) decry the ongoing violence. But the fact remains that none of these people can give an example of how an opponent bent on destruction unto death can be dealt with through anything but similar means. Up until now Hammas dudes 'es gonna kill Iraeli dudes. As a result Iraeli dudes 'es gonna kill Hamas dudes. It's a travesty and it is insulting to use slang to describe such a state. But them's the stakes me boy. History and the present stance of Hammas does not exhibit otherwise.

The closing comments are a nice example. So here goes, If I was Obama and my daughters were being treated like Palestinian civilians are being treated... I would do everything in my power to get rid of the people who were using my daughters as human shields.

EDIT: I hadn't watched the video that was posted under the points that were made. I wanted to add this because of how hopeless the elements shown in the video were. The vid is filled with terrible scenes of death and helplessness, i.e. poor Palestine, i.e. Israel is baaad. BUT that is then followed by an outspoken comment made by a Jordanian leader which I believe greatly exposes the reason for such violence.
Here you have a muslim individual who is charging non-supporters of Gaza (no delineation being made between Hamas and civilians) with being traitors. He incited arab people to "take to the streets and sacrifice their own for the "palestinian people." He demands that Arab leaders who have attempted peaceful negotiations with the "Jewish enemy" to revoke all agreements treaties and promises that have been made with the "criminal enemy". Furthermore that whoever establishes a relationship with "the enemy" is nothing but a criminal. This is rediculous! How can such obvious hatred be held as side worth sympathizing with? Of course innocent people are dying. It's AWFUL!! But that Jordanian is a perfect example of the belligerence that Israel is up against.

[Sabin]

I had to make a note on this. I actually agreed on everything you wrote until these last two sentences have made your paragraphs fall down. This is by far the most stereotypical way of thinking. Judging a whole region by just one country. If I called all of Europe now "retards" because of Germany back in the world war days, it wouldn't make much sense now would it? The "mentality" in the middle east is not old at all, as if you had traveled anywhere but that part you would've known.


But this is the truth my friend.
You steal - they chop your hand off.
You look at an attractive woman - there will be big problems if she is married.
You speak against the government - they kill you.
They even tell people to spy on eachother for money. If anyone finds a "traitor" they get rewarded.
If you are anything but muslim you should never ever show it. You pretend to be muslim.
They see a church? They burn it to the ground.

I know much about many of the countries in that region. In fact; I know shitloads about the mentality down there. FFs, I'm from that region. It is not assumption from my side. I'm giving you cold hard facts.


Sabin,

Although I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with you on other threads, I do appreciate your insight and experiences. Thanks for the info. I'm sorry you've had to suffer though the war.

All I can really say at this point is, yeah, they do hate each other a lot. But sometime, sooner or later, there has to be a "break" with all this conflict. Personally, I'm hoping that one day, they can come to some kind of agreement or compromise and stop killing each other. I know, it's easy for an outsider for me to say that, but honestly I don't believe that violence solves issues always. I would rather they be handled in a milder manner.


I hate wars as I said earlier, but "true" peace will never be possible. If this happens I'll chop my left hand. This war has been going on for hundreds of years - not only decades. Nothing have helped to this day. They could stop for a while, but they will restart this whole mess someday.

The thing is that I do not blame regular jews and muslims. This is all the work of fundamentalists and people with personal agendas or greedy motherfuckers that want power - using religion as their excuse.

[Nagase]

But this is the truth my friend.
You steal - they chop your hand off.
You look at an attractive woman - there will be big problems if she is married.
You speak against the government - they kill you.
They even tell people to spy on eachother for money. If anyone finds a "traitor" they get rewarded.
If you are anything but muslim you should never ever show it. You pretend to be muslim.
They see a church? They burn it to the ground.

I know much about many of the countries in that region. In fact; I know shitloads about the mentality down there. FFs, I'm from that region. It is not assumption from my side. I'm giving you cold hard facts..

I disagree even though you're from there.

Just because they haven't changed their way of life to equal our supposed equallity, it doesn't make them old fashioned.

If America and England (for example) followed Christianity to the word, we'd still be leading armies across the world in the name of God and hanging people for blasphemy. However, we don't. Religon is by no means followed anywhere near as much in our countries and has been manipulated to suit the people.

Religion over there isn't just a belief like it is for most over here, It's a way of life.

[Saudude]

But this is the truth my friend.
You steal - they chop your hand off.
You look at an attractive woman - there will be big problems if she is married.
You speak against the government - they kill you.
They even tell people to spy on eachother for money. If anyone finds a "traitor" they get rewarded.
If you are anything but muslim you should never ever show it. You pretend to be muslim.
They see a church? They burn it to the ground.

I know much about many of the countries in that region. In fact; I know shitloads about the mentality down there. FFs, I'm from that region. It is not assumption from my side. I'm giving you cold hard facts.

I'm from that region too, and I actually live there. These aren't "cold hard facts" they're false accusations that any stereotypical person, such as yourself, who does nothing to research a place he's only heard of, assume.

You steal, you look at an attractive woman, you speak against the goverment etc. All the punishments that come along with these are from religion. You're setting these on none other than what is heard these days in the news, Saudi Arabia, which is known to be an extremist country, and which is, as I have to repeat myself, a country in that region which does represent us as a whole. Where I live, the U.A.E. to be precise, we are open minded. There are churches around here(they don't get "burned" to the ground). There are "arab" christians here who we fully respect. Alot of expats over here with a variety of religions that doesn't effect us. Similar countries are Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, Eygpt, Jordan etc.

Now I'm guessing you're not from that region because you don't really have an idea of what its like here nowadays so you should get your facts straight before explaining about our "mentality" over here.

[Sabin]

I'm from that region too, and I actually live there. These aren't "cold hard facts" they're false accusations that any stereotypical person, such as yourself, who does nothing to research a place he's only heard of, assume.

You steal, you look at an attractive woman, you speak against the goverment etc. All the punishments that come along with these are from religion. You're setting these on none other than what is heard these days in the news, Saudi Arabia, which is known to be an extremist country, and which is, as I have to repeat myself, a country in that region which does represent us as a whole. Where I live, the U.A.E. to be precise, we are open minded. There are churches around here(they don't get "burned" to the ground). There are "arab" christians here who we fully respect. Alot of expats over here with a variety of religions that doesn't effect us. Similar countries are Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, Eygpt, Jordan etc.

Now I'm guessing you're not from that region because you don't really have an idea of what its like here nowadays so you should get your facts straight before explaining about our "mentality" over here.

You have your opinion and I have mine. I'm not saying every country over there is like this. I know Lebanon, Syria and some other countries are tolerant. But there are also countries that act the way I'm telling you. The leaders are in some way old fashioned. The people that live there are starting to mordenize. I'll admit I do not have a 100% accurate view at this time. I was talking about how it was when I lived there.

[finalmattasy]

Nagase, dude you obviously have no idea what Christianity is about. Your comment about England and America following the Bible to a tee would have pretty much the exact opposite effect of what you described. Read the Bible, it's only like the most famous book in the world.. get an education.
oh and religion is a belief which is conveyed through actions. do you really think it makes sense for someone to have a belief and not have what they believe effect them? if people of a certain religion don't act in accordance with their religion do they really believe it? ..no.

[Nagase]

Nagase, dude you obviously have no idea what Christianity is about. Your comment about England and America following the Bible to a tee would have pretty much the exact opposite effect of what you described. Read the Bible, it's only like the most famous book in the world.. get an education.
oh and religion is a belief which is conveyed through actions. do you really think it makes sense for someone to have a belief and not have what they believe effect them? if people of a certain religion don't act in accordance with their religion do they really believe it? ..no..

Oh I can tell me and you are going to get along just fine.

Ok, let me start explain something to you.

First of all, when we were following the bible to a tee, the place was a slaughter house. By no means would a totally religious country make us a type of Eutopia like I think you're implying.

Get your head out of your ass and check back a few hundred years and you might have a good example of how following the bible doesn't lead to a perfect society, it generally leads to the opposite.

Oh and considering a lot of the bible is supposed to be metaphorical, surely that means it can be taken in a multitude of different ways meaning that a person's actions depend on their view of the metaphor.

You tell me to get an education? Yeah I might not be Oxford material, but at least I remember to start my sentences with a capital letter.

Don't confuse blind faith with intelligence, they're quite different.

[Luriana]

Read the Bible, it's only like the most famous book in the world.. get an education.

You tell me to get an education? Yeah I might not be Oxford material, but at least I remember to start my sentences with a capital letter.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b227/calehalley/christ_pwned.jpg

[finalmattasy]

Hi Nagase, yeah, I really don't want to argue with you about Christianity. Certainly on a thread that has nothing directly to do with Christianity. Suffice to say that the term "Christian" was coined by people who lived in Corinth when they observed believers who believed that Jesus Christ had died for their sins. Jesus, the person who is the focal point of Christianity and all of his disciples in the Bible are people who endured extreme torture and rejection for their beliefs. None of whom walked in a path of physical retaliation to their treatment.
On an interesting side note that does have to do with this thread, Muhammad the focal point of Islam was a person who bore arms to get his way. He also encouraged others to do so in order to see his beliefs proliferated. Whereas Yaweh, the God of the Iraelites which you can read about in the Old Testament, was and is a Deity that is entirely concerned with righteousness. In turn Yaweh punished or blessed Israelites and non-Iraelites according to their adherence to the 10 Commandments... essentially.

[Nagase]

Hi Nagase, yeah, I really don't want to argue with you about Christianity. Certainly on a thread that has nothing directly to do with Christianity. Suffice to say that the term "Christian" was coined by people who lived in Corinth when they observed believers who believed that Jesus Christ had died for their sins. Jesus, the person who is the focal point of Christianity and all of his disciples in the Bible are people who endured extreme torture and rejection for their beliefs. None of whom walked in a path of physical retaliation to their treatment.
On an interesting side note that does have to do with this thread, Muhammad the focal point of Islam was a person who bore arms to get his way. He also encouraged others to do so in order to see his beliefs proliferated.

Ah so religion does generally bring along violence in its path. At least we've cleared that one up.http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq307/JesusBlewMeOnce/1231283971158.png

[SUPER JAM]

And you know Y ? no doubt , 'Johny-come-later' is wrong.

http://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-palestine_map.jpg



Even it's still under the "No-shoot" contract for 6 months , but on the last Dec.4 08 there was the president election , and the news reported that Israel had invaded into Gaza first and killed 6 Palestines people on that day, therefore it had the response from Palestine later.

[finalmattasy]

Nagase =) yup, i'd definately agree with you there. not that religion is the cause of violence necessarily, but more that beliefs provoke the violence that lives in the hearts of every human being.

[finalmattasy]

Cynthia, that's a great picture! Gotta wonder what it was like for Israelis in 1946? I think those map shots are pretty indicative of the fact that this war continues to be in a state of flux. I still stand by the idea that the motivations of the fighting groups (eradication of Jews within Palestine vs. right to land and power) stand superior in consequence than any present set of casualties.

[SUPER JAM]

Cynthia, that's a great picture! Gotta wonder what it was like for Israelis in 1946? I think those map shots are pretty indicative of the fact that this war continues to be in a state of flux. I still stand by the idea that the motivations of the fighting groups (eradication of Jews within Palestine vs. right to land and power) stand superior in consequence than any present set of casualties.


Your present set is good , but as i mentioned , there are many various factors about the conflict. But the major one is the region.I know about how Palestinians feel , according to the area of Gaza which is fucking small as the mouse hole in Bill Gate's mansion. The Palestinians originally owned the whole area. But as you said , there's still dealed with religion because Jews believe that Palestine is the 'Promised Land" of God that gave to Jews and one day they have to return back to the Promised Land that God had promised.

The Zionist organization was the main root , they asked UK for help to support their passion to immigrate to stay in Palestine which initially UK proposed the land of East Africa (part of Kenya) to them , but Zionist council had rejected and still had the strong resolution to want to stay in Palestine. At the beginning , the Zionist didn't think that the immigration of Jews would make the conflict with the home owner that was the Muslim and Christian Arab who origally stayed in that area. Jews still consecutively immigrated , until 1908 that there was the conflict between Jews and Arab in Palestine.

So the main cause is just the Zion organization , they persuaded every Jews who lived spreadly all around Europe to come to gather altogether to immigrate to Palestine which they believed this was the Promised Land of God ,regardless to the fact that there was the Arab people in that area already...they didn't care at all.

It's fucking long story, and i'm not history student ... so i don't know much about this....i hate reading books , honestly.

But the fact , you may think in your head and then can analyze .... im not witty
In turn , as i think it's just about the area grabbing , imagine if one day someone comes to your home and says "this is my house , i have the right to stay in here! , if you not move , my friend who's police will come to arrest you!"
and if you got chased like this and been forced to stay in only the dog house .... would you still feel pleasant and happy???

Gaza is grand fucking little as im not able to find any words to compare with anymore....firstly they told that they will separate the land into 2 equal parts.... but no, and then this time is as you see...... many housholds with many families, people still need food, water and supplies ...but they lack of it, they have to stay in very fucking narrow homes...and always frighten that when will have the bombs.......... not helping them is ok , but at least , just show some mercy....the adult should not tease child , even he/she is fucking annoying...but they still can't do much cuz they have less power than you and you still know within the deep of your inbred that there's no way it can prevail you...at least just show some mercy......share more areas, reasonable negotiation , and find some way to conquer hamas , not harm all of innocent citizens like this ...becuz Israel just invaded first and killed 6 Palestinians...so it must be the response from the Palestinians for sure. I heard the Muslim's philosophy that "An eye for an eye , a tooth for a tooth."

[finalmattasy]

Cynthia, thanx for the bit of a history lesson. Thanx for the time you've spent sharing your opinion. I think I can understand some of where your coming from, and it make sense to me. Paragraph 5 of your last note is the only one I wanna comment on.
In turn , as i think it's just about the area grabbing , imagine if one day someone comes to your home and says "this is my house , i have the right to stay in here! , if you not move , my friend who's police will come to arrest you!"
and if you got chased like this and been forced to stay in only the dog house .... would you still feel pleasant and happy???
No I don't think I'd be happy at all! I don't think the conflict is just about area grabbing though. From your history lesson it sounds like Israelis immigrated in droves until finally certain Palestinians decided that the best thing to do was to kick the Jews out.. or kill them. This line of action makes the conflict ultimately about self-defense on the Israeli side imo. Yes, they came to a country that had other people already living there. Yes, they worked and used the natural resources of the land. Yes, they were a clique, apart from Arabs as Arabs were also apart from them. But the response of certain Arab groups to violently push Israel out of a country that includes legally immigrated Jews. - that is the same as if Native Americans suddenly rose up under a united religious banner (that buffered them from self preservation) and decided that Caucasian people were the "enemy" and not fit to live in America.
Race and Religion are contentious issues everywhere. But Race and Religious preferences unto death is unacceptable for any victim who would want to remain as they are. It's kill or be killed under those circumstances.
As far as Jews kicking Palestinians out of their homes and corralling them into a tiny uncomfortable piece of land? I could be completely wrong but I really don't think that that is what is at the root of the conflict. I think that radical militant Islamic idealism is. I could only hope that the circumstances would be much different if Israel wasn't faced with such a black ultimatum. And I would also hope that if any life might be spared, that it would be.

[SUPER JAM]

Cynthia, thanx for the bit of a history lesson. Thanx for the time you've spent sharing your opinion. I think I can understand some of where your coming from, and it make sense to me. Paragraph 5 of your last note is the only one I wanna comment on.
In turn , as i think it's just about the area grabbing , imagine if one day someone comes to your home and says "this is my house , i have the right to stay in here! , if you not move , my friend who's police will come to arrest you!"
and if you got chased like this and been forced to stay in only the dog house .... would you still feel pleasant and happy???
No I don't think I'd be happy at all! I don't think the conflict is just about area grabbing though. From your history lesson it sounds like Israelis immigrated in droves until finally certain Palestinians decided that the best thing to do was to kick the Jews out.. or kill them. This line of action makes the conflict ultimately about self-defense on the Israeli side imo. Yes, they came to a country that had other people already living there. Yes, they worked and used the natural resources of the land. Yes, they were a clique, apart from Arabs as Arabs were also apart from them. But the response of certain Arab groups to violently push Israel out of a country that includes legally immigrated Jews. - that is the same as if Native Americans suddenly rose up under a united religious banner (that buffered them from self preservation) and decided that Caucasian people were the "enemy" and not fit to live in America.
Race and Religion are contentious issues everywhere. But Race and Religious preferences unto death is unacceptable for any victim who would want to remain as they are. It's kill or be killed under those circumstances.
As far as Jews kicking Palestinians out of their homes and corralling them into a tiny uncomfortable piece of land? I could be completely wrong but I really don't think that that is what is at the root of the conflict. I think that radical militant Islamic idealism is. I could only hope that the circumstances would be much different if Israel wasn't faced with such a black ultimatum. And I would also hope that if any life might be spared, that it would be.


Sorry, but I'm not from that area and I'm not from Middle East. But I analyze with fair to fair that Israel's action is not appropriate.

Besides, i don't quite agree with Nagase that becuz it's jews , not US , if it's US instead so everyone will support US. The real answer is No....but i agree with you about the reason that US just conceals their action about Iraq civillians...but assuming if everyone knows what actually US did to Iraq people, so i think the feedback is condemn US's action for sure.....the US just uses media to control and manipulate with , which 'Media' is very vital factor for everypeople to decide what to judge..........and when the Media becomes the truthbenders so it can control people's minds to advocate with their action without knowing the truth.

Actually, btw US and Iraq thing , i study Economics , and the theory just said that the reason why some country has no civilizations becuz the government leader sucks all of people's incomes so that they're gonna use it to construct Nuclear Weapons or any other harmful weapons. But it doesn't always go along with books in real life,Iraq doesn't have Nuclear Weapon! and it's the CIA's misjudgement and mistaken report ...til the president had to send the army forces to invade in Iraq...... it's the misinformation. They just 'forecast' it that it has 'possibilities' and use their own 'value judgement'. And people fear that Bush will misjudge again 2nd time about Nuclear Project in Iran under the false information from the CIA. The US got discredited from reporting that Iraq has Nuclear Weapon , but actually they can't find the Nuclear Weapon in Iraq , there's no evidences and proofs that Saddam had possessed the Nuclear Weapons (actually Iraq had Nuclear Development Factory , but it ended since the Persian Wars I). Don't blame US soldiers , they just have to pursue by the command, it's their duties........i know that soldiers have hearts to feel that how hurtful is it to have to kill the innocent Iraq people , it's not the beautiful vision, honestly, to kill someone and seeing them slightly die front of you. You just see the outside of the factories but do not see any pictures and clips of what's inside the factories , what's the method of production , who's scientist and developers, what of their weaponary products.

The information from the CIA is false, so it brought the great domino effect. The information is important ..... if the media has false report so it can cause the big change to the people's sights.

Oh, why we got distracted, seems we are in the topic of Israel-Palestine conflict right?
I wanna know more about your analysis, finalmattasy, this is damn fucking serious disscussion, and i was out off the absurds. Seems it just has the substantial heavy matter in here. Finalmattasy, you have the really brilliant essay about your opinion , please share me more.

[finalmattasy]

Thanx for the encouragement Cynthia. Though I don't think I have anything else to say. Either way both sides have enough bad blood between each other to cause them to keep killing one another until the end of time. It's brutally sad. I understand that if either side becomes the oppressor (as Israel has become whether of necessity for peace or greed for power - I assume the first and expect a mixture of both) that they will continue to have the "bad-guy" reputation until the tide of violence turns to fall back upon them. Wouldn't it be great if people could just sit down and enjoy a good video-game together!? It's all very sad. The best thing I can say is that everybody is guilty of sin and everybody needs a saviour. Or to put it another way, "I love Jesus!!" =)

[Nagase]

The best thing I can say is that everybody is guilty of sin and everybody needs a saviour. Or to put it another way, "I love Jesus!!" =)

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq307/JesusBlewMeOnce/1225680635039.jpg

[SUPER JAM]

Thanx for the encouragement Cynthia. Though I don't think I have anything else to say. Either way both sides have enough bad blood between each other to cause them to keep killing one another until the end of time. It's brutally sad. I understand that if either side becomes the oppressor (as Israel has become whether of necessity for peace or greed for power - I assume the first and expect a mixture of both) that they will continue to have the "bad-guy" reputation until the tide of violence turns to fall back upon them. Wouldn't it be great if people could just sit down and enjoy a good video-game together!? It's all very sad. The best thing I can say is that everybody is guilty of sin and everybody needs a saviour. Or to put it another way, "I love Jesus!!" =)

Well, I've tried to avoid the religion topic , because in here everyone comes from variety of regions , variety of cultures , so i believe that someones in here are Muslim and someones in here are Judaism. No need for bias, and yeah it's great that you have the strong faith in Jesus....but honestly , i feel really bored to see about the religion discussings in the forum. Whatever you faith , it's just your business , but the thing that all of us have to deal with is "Synergizing" , so we can live together peacefully , should not crash against some religions and shoud stop trying narcissism by insulting some people who are different from you and constitute yourself that 'mine is better , im superior than you...etc;'
And im so sorry if anyone is Jews or have Jewish decents in here , im not bashing against Jews people , but im bashing against Jews Government, not the ordinary people. So about the religions , we should not deal deep with it cuz this is not the battlefield for holy wars ... but in my point , i faith and approve in the dharmic truths of Christianity ,Buddhism and Taoism. These 3 are enlighten in my sight. So it's ok that we may not live happily together , but we have to live peacefully , if hate so just separate and ignore each other , and just live with your owns and don't care. This is not the time to sit and condemn the one who causes it.......but it's just the time to fix and solve the latest situation , as like "Kaizen" system concept.

Seems we have the nice jam , finalmattasy , you are smart and intelligent , but in this moment, God does not help us if we don't start to help ourselves first. And also seems we are "STARBUCKS LOVERS". I just wanna try to set the atmosphere in here like we are sitting in Starbucks , chilling and discussing about the political and what's going on with the global.



http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp49/jamjamjang/starbucks-cup.jpg

[finalmattasy]

LOL nice starbucks pick. If you look closely at mine you'll see that it reads "SudohBucks" which is actually the rip-off coffee shop in the anime "ToraDora." The girl with chopsticks in her mouth is also from that show.
About the religion thing. I'm interested in hearing what you get from those 3. If you don't wanna discuss faith here I understand...but yeah faith is great to talk about imo. To me it's allot more interesting than politics.

[SUPER JAM]

LOL nice starbucks pick. If you look closely at mine you'll see that it reads "SudohBucks" which is actually the rip-off coffee shop in the anime "ToraDora." The girl with chopsticks in her mouth is also from that show.
About the religion thing. I'm interested in hearing what you get from those 3. If you don't wanna discuss faith here I understand...but yeah faith is great to talk about imo. To me it's allot more interesting than politics.

Yeah , i know , it imitates Starbucks logo.

Besides, your slogan of signature imitates from the movie "Crouching Tiger,Hidden Dragon" . I really like Michelle Yeoh , she's great.

Haha, i see that you have the strong faith in Jesus , but you are Catholic or Protestant? By the way, i also don't like politics , many people have negative views about politics....but yeah , politics is very important. The communication , the media , the report are very essentially vital in daily life , because we can absorb the informations from them and they are the main factor for us to judge or determine whether it's truth or false. The sort is vital , if the agencies or whatever the journalists report the false information by misjudgement or cannot find the real sources , so it will cause the domino effect to the people.

If they don't know the true sources , so they may analyze by using the current evidences , the current observation that they can ever find on that time and base it on the hypothesis including some of value judgement. They have the process by measuring the "Weight" (or called "substance") on it. If they think this info. has no percentage of possibilities to occur so they will use 'Remote' ,and then if it's almost no percentage of possibilities so they just use ' Very unlikely' or 'Unlikely'. If there are the equal chances for both possibilites and impossibilities (called 50-50) so they use ' Even chance'. If it's 'maybe happen' so just use 'Probably'. If it's 'maybe 'possible' so just use 'Likely' , if it's 'maybe more possible' so use ' Very likely' and finally if they believe that it's 'almost 100% possible' so they just use 'Almost certainly'.

[Little Miss Scarlett]

It's not a war though, is it? It's a bloody massacre.

The way the Palestinians have to live is awful. I can easily say now that if I had to live the same way they do I'd be joining Hamas in an instant, and I'd shoot the bastard Israeli's a second later.

I love how all these reports completely leave out how repressed the palestinians are, and how they're treated as subhuman by Israel. This sort of thing goes on all the time over there, this is just particularly bad. Strict curfews where if they break them they're shot, they're not allowed into hospitals, Israeli tanks regularly running over people and their homes. No compensation, of course. Try watching reports from Arab news channels if you want to see what's really going on.

I will honestly never understand how people can agree with Israel over this.

Edit: And wtf does Jesus have to do with any of this?

[finalmattasy]

Yeah that all sounds terrible. Waayy terrible. I will say I have no idea what's going on over there. Just that we can't know for certain why things are being done. We've already talked allot in this thread about the attacks and I don't wanna repeat myself over and over... I think our perspectives on this issue can be helped if we consider what the two sides say they stand for. What they say (israel) could most certainly be a lie. But what the people they are fighting say could certainly be true as well. http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm -this page shows a list of Hamas principles. I encourage you to check out Zionist priciples or goals as well. Decide for yourself which one you think is the best one to be in control.
It makes a certain level of sense for us to assume that all these attacks are based on hate and the desire to kill... but what if Israel knew that Hamas had a nuclear or chemical bomb or some other force that would justify these attacks. My point is that we really don't know why these things are taking place. From what I understand Hamas is a force which anyone can see is impossible to negotiate with.
Not for a second am I saying that Israel is right. Just that I believe they need to repel and fight in order to maintain a form of understandable control. I wont assume that this is a correct level of force. But none of us really know what is right and wrong in this... rather it's all wrong, but what is needed to keep it from being wrong-er.

P.S. Jesus came up in this thread because my belief in Him is part of my life. He has allot to do with how I view allot of stuff. So thanx for letting me express myself. I respect your opinion that Jesus has nothing to do with this subject.

[sobchack]

hamas nuclear bomb? get real

[finalmattasy]

Whatever dude. If you wanna find the most far fetched part of my message and make a snobby reply out of it, go ahead waste your time... wait I'm wasting MY time, talking to YOU..bye.

[saboraum1]

every single one has his own opinion no one can argue with that (about me i'm 100% with hamas and i believe that nobody is able to change this, cause i'm sure that they're protecting their home). and about the victims... there is no comparison, i mean come on more than 1300 Palestinian (about 45% of them are children, women and old people) while 4 in isreal. so really, they call that defending them selves? and does really hamas hide their weapon inside the hospitals and schools? We don't need actually to use our brains to asume who is the real criminal

[finalmattasy]

I'm done with checking this thread. Thanx for the conversation. Hope everybody is doing well. Seeya!

[SUPER JAM]

I'm done with checking this thread. Thanx for the conversation. Hope everybody is doing well. Seeya!

Ignore some internet terrorist fags , no need to argue , it's absolute waste ya time. And yeahh sorry for late reply , we should wait for what will be going to happen in the future , now the only thing can do is keep checking news , cure injured palestinian people. I think it's not deal with religions , cuz palestinian ppl also faith various religions including Christianity , Judaism too , not only Islam.

Finalmattasy , can i ask you some 'overtime' question , ya like Crounching Tiger,Hidden Dragon??? same as me!!!! honestly i usually don't watch chinese movie ....... have ya read "Three Kingdoms of China"??? i don't know ya'll come this thread again or not , but if no more is ok ...just little wonder