Gender Idenitfication and Transgendered People's

[Dream Machine]

I was surfing the internetz today and came across this particular story:

http://www.usmagazine.com/transgender-contestant-to-compete-on-antm

I personally think she's hawt, but thats not why I started this thread :aldo:. No, I have only a small understanding of gender identification and reassignment surgery and all of that business, but I do know that I *know* that people who have gone through this very difficult process are in my eyes, whatever they identify as. I've noticed a lot of malcontent toward individuals who go from female-to-male or male-to-female transformations.

Aren't these people just correcting a mistake? Becoming on the outside what they feel they are on the inside? A lot of people immediately say something along the lines of 'God made them male/female, how dare they change that blah blah blah'. Well then how about people who are born intersexed? Were they meant to be like that? I don't think so.

[Luriana]

Well, I think everyone can do whatever they want with their own bodies, but the problem is that society created a way of seeing it as bad, impure, even evil. Mainly because of religious reasons, like you said in the 'God made them...' part.

Many people that WANT to do that, because they feel they should do it on the inside, DON'T do it, because of the repercussions it may bring... the society as a whole doesn't accepts it, I don't know why. It's like homosexuality, they're still humans, only thing that changed in them was sexual preference, but there's the homophobia and related stuff... that's the world we live in -.-"

Anyway, I think that people should care about their own lives.

[IBeatMyMeat]

I think another thing it springs from is just that. People thinking about how one's that do w/e surgeries to their bodys may do to their lives. Alot of adults may see it as something to avoid due to thinking of a young child or children that they may have, wondering what kind of effect someone that has undergone the surgeries could have on their children. And then others are just as you said, falling under the defense of religion. Then forget that whatever god(s) they believe in also gave "their creations" free will and the ability to choose w/e path they so choose. But thats all just where the phobias and such come from. I don't think it will ever be a widely accepted thing in any society, but who knows maybe this chick thats showin up on Top Model may make a difference. It'd be interesting to see tons of dudes drooling over her xD. All in all, a person's gender doesn't effect anything, that's the age we live in. And it shouldn't matter if it's someone born, or made, gender.

[Luriana]

That's why I'm an atheist.

Religion just gets in the goddamn (what an irony...) way.

[Desi]

that chick has a strange nose. But this thread is fail without many more pictures.

[IBeatMyMeat]

You sure you're Atheist if for that reason? xD Sounds more Agnostic <.<;; Though either way it doesn't matter at all. I'll deffinately agree with you on that aspect though. The only religions that don't really get in the way are more ancient, or eastern religions, mostly from Chinese and Japanese culture. Oh if only we were all more like those hentai loving horny old men ; ;....Slight sarcasm there xD. Either way you also can't blaim it all on religion xD It's also just human nature to fear/hate things they/we can't fully understand and I don't think most people will ever understand why others would do that to their bodies.

[Luriana]

Whatever, Darkie.
Humanity could've been better without religion, IMO.

Because of it, many humans can't even BE humans...

But anyway, it's just my POV.

[Desi]

religion helps promote morals pretty much the best.

[IBeatMyMeat]

I'll trade freedom from religion for lower moral-fiber anyday <.<; Look at our species....obviously religion doesn't help as much as we wish it would xD Hell that's why we're fighting civilians in different contries while ppl keep blowing themselves up.

[Luriana]

I don't even discuss about religion... I respect religious people, but I just dislike proselytism.
My atheism came naturally.
What can I say? My mom's agnostic and dad's deistic.

[IBeatMyMeat]

Gah I'm such a failure! I hadta wiki proselytism ; ;

[Nox]

Religion changes peoples morals and ideals on life, which is why I'm atheist. Transgender people, or whatever you want to call them, can be treated differently because of religion, too. I don't mind transgendered people. They can live however they want to.

[Luriana]

Like changing sex would make someone a worse person. Hah.

Humans sometimes scare me. That's why I chose to be a Vet.
Just love coming home and seeing my kitteh and dawg. And when working, see loads more.

meow

[adiduz]

...Atheism ftw. Then again god gave us free will to do whatever we want! I can't wait till the world becomes engulfed in lust like "Brave New World". The world's already fucked up as it is and I wouldn't change a thing about it. Here's a clip from "Little Nicky":blink:
YouTube - Little Nicky (2000) - Part 3 of 9 It keeps saying the video is unavailable weird just click the link above the video screen.

[Luriana]

Anyone ever read 'The God Delusion' by Dawkins?

[Nox]

Anyone ever read 'The God Delusion' by Dawkins?

No, ever go to evilbible.com? Major atheist website.

[Luriana]

Checking it, Liz.

Woot, just pure epicness. Too bad no catholic/christian will read it. It would be sorta awakening for them x]

[Luriana]

"Osama BinLaden would look like a Boy Scout"

Ownzored.

[Hitoshura]

I'll try to keep this unbiased.

I dont see how being born in the wrong body is a "mistake." People are born a certain gender because.... well, thats the way they were meant to be. I wish I could explain it better, but you'd have to be mind-corrupted if you wanted to switch sexes.

EDIT: Lets keep religion out of this, we have enough threads about it already.

[Luriana]

Allen, I don't think so, sorry. You know why? Because humans are sentient, they feel emotions, they can make choices. That's why I don't think it's corruption. Naturally, it WAS meant to be what nature has made them, but their insides, their inner selves tell them the reverse.

[Hitoshura]

Allen, I don't think so, sorry. You know why? Because humans are sentient, they feel emotions, they can make choices. That's why I don't think it's corruption. Naturally, it WAS meant to be what nature has made them, but their insides, their inner selves tell them the reverse.

I can understand what youre trying to say, but humans cant choose everything, and gender is one of those things. They can be queer and all that but switching bodies just aint right :/

[Luriana]

I just don't think it's up to us to tell that, Allen. But I respect your opinion, though.

[Dream Machine]

I can understand what youre trying to say, but humans cant choose everything, and gender is one of those things. They can be queer and all that but switching bodies just aint right :/

But we've gotten to the point where we can choose things like what sex we are. For thousands of years people have been doing things to change in whatever way they feel they can, with whatever tools have been available, especially in regard to sex and gender. The modern day operations we have are just a much more sophisticated form of this.

I think one thing you always have to take into account is how difficult it is for them to go through with something like this, I mean most of society calls them freaks and whathaveyou and violence against transpeople is endemic. They wouldn't go through all of that pain and danger unless they truly felt they were in the wrong bodies, it doesn't make any sense otherwise.

http://www.albertatrans.org/history.shtml

Quite informative.

[Tidus]

I think another thing it springs from is just that. People thinking about how one's that do w/e surgeries to their bodys may do to their lives. Alot of adults may see it as something to avoid due to thinking of a young child or children that they may have, wondering what kind of effect someone that has undergone the surgeries could have on their children. And then others are just as you said, falling under the defense of religion. Then forget that whatever god(s) they believe in also gave "their creations" free will and the ability to choose w/e path they so choose. But thats all just where the phobias and such come from. I don't think it will ever be a widely accepted thing in any society, but who knows maybe this chick thats showin up on Top Model may make a difference. It'd be interesting to see tons of dudes drooling over her xD. All in all, a person's gender doesn't effect anything, that's the age we live in. And it shouldn't matter if it's someone born, or made, gender.

I'm not knocking....and I don't intend to judge or try to change anyone based on my own personal beliefs...but I will give my own personal opinion about the "guys drooling bit". I for one won't count as one of them. Thats like if one of my best friends went into the bathroom, put a wig on, came back out, and said..."TAKE ME!" Its still a guy. You can try to hide and cover it up....but you can't change it.

Do I personally believe it wrong to try to change it.....yes. Do I hate others and poke fun at them for being homosexual/ or trans..? Of course not. Its your life. Live how you wanna live. I will respect you as long as you respect me. I'll treat you how I want to be treated. Thats how it all should be.

And for goodness sakes tell the guy or girl you start dating that you used to be the opposite sex. That is very messed up indeed.

[Love]

I'm Religious but~ i believe everyone is born the way they are (Gay/Lesbian/Bi/Trans/Etc) and i don't think anyone has the right to tell another person what to do with their own body/life! :3


Homophobia/trans phobia is just as bad as rasicm to me ;3;
Hopefully one day we will live in a world where no one is discriminated against ;O;

[Hitoshura]

I'm Religious but~ i believe everyone is born the way they are (Gay/Lesbian/Bi/Trans/Etc) and i don't think anyone has the right to tell another person what to do with their own body/life! :3


I disagree, how can someone be born as a homosexual? That makes no sense to me.

[Pain Clone]

I think any type of plastic surgary is bad, its a risk having surgary for illnesses in the first place. Thats not to say its wrong but i guess ill be uneasy with a women who used to be a man.

[Love]

I disagree, how can someone be born as a homosexual? That makes no sense to me.

And you think someone CHOOSING a life full of hate and discrimination (even DEATH in some country's) makes more sense? o.o;;
I don't think anyone would choose that life, i know i wouldn't.

[Hitoshura]

And you think someone CHOOSING a life full of hate and discrimination (even DEATH in some country's) makes more sense? o.o;;
I don't think anyone would choose that life, i know i wouldn't.

wtf? I never said anything along those lines....

[Luriana]

wtf? I never said anything along those lines....

Allen, I think she meant that it doesn't makes sense when someone chooses to be gay, lesbian, trans, etc., they are somehow already born with the tendency to become such. Because in nowadays world, anyone that chooses to live a life of discrimination, hate and such wouldn't make sense at all. To me at least.

[Love]

Allen, I think she meant that it doesn't makes sense when someone chooses to be gay, lesbian, trans, etc., they are somehow already born with the tendency to become such. Because in nowadays world, anyone that chooses to live a life of discrimination, hate and such wouldn't make sense at all. To me at least.

Thank you Luriana~<3 T_T
That's exactly what i meant~

[Pixel]

And you think someone CHOOSING a life full of hate and discrimination (even DEATH in some country's) makes more sense? o.o;;
I don't think anyone would choose that life, i know i wouldn't.

Yes it does. If people wanna be gay, les, whatever, go ahead. But people trying to convince others that they were born that way is utter bullshit.

You are born straight, and people will always be born straight. Although, the "I've always felt this way" argument can most likely be produced from early childhood for some reason. Thus making them think that they were born that way b/c they could not remember back that far.

As for Love's gay/les/tran. tendency, I think that falls into the way your raised category. Or the above explanation.

[Little Miss Scarlett]

There are no, or very little, trends in the way people are brought up and whether they are gay or not. There's actually no solid proof either way, but there is evidence for both claims. There is, however, no solid evidence whatsoever that you can just choose or change your sexual orientation when you feel like it.

To say you're born that way isn't exactly right, but it gets the point across. It's apparantly determined at a VERY early age.

[Luriana]

There are no, or very little, trends in the way people are brought up and whether they are gay or not. There's actually no solid proof either way, but there is evidence for both claims. There is, however, no solid evidence whatsoever that you can just choose or change your sexual orientation when you feel like it.

To say you're born that way isn't exactly right, but it gets the point across. It's apparantly determined at a VERY early age.

That's what I meant, Heartilly. Generally at a very early age the individual has, in a sorta way, his/her sexual orientation defined. But there's many other factors involved, and I don't think they're relevant here.

[Dream Machine]

You can tell how informed people are when they lump transgenderism in with homo/bisexuality. they are completely different things, a lot of people have this perception that transgendered people are on some sort of extreme scale of homosexuality (this links sexuality with gender roles and behaviors, something thats always annoyed me, do I really have to show you butch gay guys and femme lesbians to get you to see sense?). If TransGENDERism (not Transexuality as the term problematically links being trans with sexuality) was indeed related to homo and bisexuality, then why do some transwomen have relationships with women and transmen with men?

Also its derivative of the point of this thread, but I'm of the belief that we are mostly born to be bisexually responsive, most people err to one side or the other but we all fall on a scale. If anything we aren't born straight or gay, but bisexual and society encourages us to fall into one pattern of behavior, or binary opposition as its called. This of course doesn't work very well and leads to all manner of stupidness like 'down-low' and repressed sexulity and blah blah blah.

[Pixel]

To say you're born that way isn't exactly right, but it gets the point across. It's apparantly determined at a VERY early age.

I'll agree with that.

You can tell how informed people are when they lump transgenderism in with homo/bisexuality. they are completely different things, a lot of people have this perception that transgendered people are on some sort of extreme scale of homosexuality (this links sexuality with gender roles and behaviors, something thats always annoyed me, do I really have to show you butch gay guys and femme lesbians to get you to see sense?). If TransGENDERism (not Transexuality as the term problematically links being trans with sexuality) was indeed related to homo and bisexuality, then why do some transwomen have relationships with women and transmen with men?

Also its derivative of the point of this thread, but I'm of the belief that we are mostly born to be bisexually responsive, most people err to one side or the other but we all fall on a scale. If anything we aren't born straight or gay, but bisexual and society encourages us to fall into one pattern of behavior, or binary opposition as its called. This of course doesn't work very well and leads to all manner of stupidness like 'down-low' and repressed sexulity and blah blah blah.

I don't agree with that one, if for no other reason then b/c that would make no sense. Well, less sense than anything else (to me anyway, look at the bottom of the post).

The core instinct of any living thing is to survive is it not? And to survive you HAVE to procreate, and I think the only species that can do that with the same sex are those frogs right?

I dunno. the whole topic of determining why people are gay or want to be the opposite sex is very, very, very gray and very opinionated. Which is usually why I don't argue with people about it. And if for no other reason most of the people I have gotten into an argument about it with are too goddamned stubborn to even listen to your side, let alone try and use your facts or beliefs to try and make a more well rounded opinion.

[Dream Machine]

Theres lots of natural reasons why bisexuality makes sense. It's quite simple, the more social the animal, the more propensity there is for bi- and homosexual behaviors, because it builds close bonds between different members of the same group beyond just mating pairs. This is something done alongside procreation and other behaviors in order to secure your genes for the next generation and at the same time protect your group/clan/etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_animals#Mammals

If you care to look, bisexuality increases in frequency the more social the animal (this is why monkeys and yes, I believe humans as well, have a large propensity toward bisexuality)

[Flowing Ice]

I thought of the perfect argument that one's sexuality is birth, and it cna't be denied.

Why do you think everyone who notices they're into the same sex are SHOCKED that they are? You don't get shocked over a choice you make, you're shocked because you find you are, but don't understand why.

Not only this, but if it were a choice, wouldn't people choose it when they're OLDER? A kid can be quite mature, but you just don't up and think about what gender you wanna be with as a child, it's out of your thoughts...

The only factor that really effects when you'll realize is how held back you, based on your own perceptions of yourself, or perceptions from others. That, or you somehow notice you lack attraction to the opposite sex, but for whatever reason don't think on why you don't feel the attraction. Those two reasoning can go hand in hand however.

[Misschoco]

I thought of the perfect argument that one's sexuality is birth, and it cna't be denied.

Why do you think everyone who notices they're into the same sex are SHOCKED that they are? You don't get shocked over a choice you make, you're shocked because you find you are, but don't understand why.

Not only this, but if it were a choice, wouldn't people choose it when they're OLDER? A kid can be quite mature, but you just don't up and think about what gender you wanna be with as a child, it's out of your thoughts...

The only factor that really effects when you'll realize is how held back you, based on your own perceptions of yourself, or perceptions from others. That, or you somehow notice you lack attraction to the opposite sex, but for whatever reason don't think on why you don't feel the attraction. Those two reasoning can go hand in hand however.I didnt really skim this topic thoroughly but I dont think the main subject is sexuality-Sorry if im incorrect.Thats not to say I dont concur with you^.About the section where you mentioned a kid cant think about what gender they want to be.True if were talking in general but there are exceptions still (you can do the research).Especially considering kids are more 'open' about what could've been taboo decades ago.

[Flowing Ice]

The exceptions are probably still rare, which goes along with what I mean.

I guess in a sense though, one's sexuality connects to gender identification in ways..since they tend to be bi. I'm not not saying that as a generalization, but still.

BTW, despite how blunt my previous post was, I haven't nothing agaisnt sexualities besides Homsoexual, or thsoe with suck issues.

Infact, i'm in between gay and bi..and also, I beleive I'm a girl inside, depsite my male body.

[Dream Machine]

I'm not sure how gender identification plays into sexuality, I mean theres obviously some sort of link but on the other hand I've personally seen quite a few examples of MTF (Male-to-Female) Transwomen who are predominantly attracted to women after surgery.

Sometimes people make the mistake of looking at Transmen and Transwomen as just being some kind of extreme homosexual.

On sexuality and gender norms, theres a huge degree of people with same sex attraction who fall outside the perceived norm of effeminate gay man and butch lesbian.