Got Religion?

[Rekhyt]

I was just wondering how many people here are religious and how many aren’t. It's very obvious that there are both, I just wanted a poll to see how many there actually are in each group.

[Neal]

Wheres the poll then? :P

[Rekhyt]

Woops. Took me all that time to make and then I vote for the wrong thing.

Fuck.

[Neal]

rofl. ill change it. ;)

Not Religious, right?

[Rekhyt]

Yea.

By the way I hate this character limit thing.

[Hitoshura]

It should be obvious on what I am.

[Neal]

Yea.

By the way I hate this character limit thing.


Changed. :)

Rob added that because of fangirls :rolleyes: and people posting one word answers. Theres a way round it though. :crazy:

[Kitmitsu]

Yea.

By the way I hate this character limit thing.

It stops 3 word answers in a serious topic :nod: I'm not religious at all. I was Christened but only because my cousin was at the same time and it was cheaper :P

[Neal]

Surely it would be even cheaper to not have been christened at all?

[Kitmitsu]

It was just a family thing. I don't know my parents motives.

[Fruit Bat]

I think that is also obvious that I am religious, but in case you did not know.......I am.

[Hitoshura]

I think that is also obvious that I am religious, but in case you did not know.......I am.

whoah, whoah, whoah, whaoh, whaoh!

Your post makes no sense. 0.o

[Fruit Bat]

How does that not make any sense?

[Rikku]

It makes sense. o_O "I am obviously religious. But in the case that you do not know I am religious for some reason, now you know I am." That's basically what he said. =P

Anyway, I really don't care. Once I was nearly atheist, then nearly Christian, now I'm entirely neutral. Sometimes I defend Atheism and Christianity in the same post. I am weird. u_u

[Fruit Bat]

It makes sense. o_O "I am obviously religious. But in the case that you do not know I am religious for some reason, now you know I am." That's basically what he said. =P

see, I am not crazy or mentally insane.

[Rikku]

see, I am not crazy or mentally insane.

I don't know about that bit...

[Lifrasthir]

I'm religious. <--No brainer.

[Askyria]

Yup, I'm religious too.

[XxFeaRLeSsxX]

I'm neutral :P I can be religious sometimes but not all the time

[Devious]

Non-religious. I am against religion. It just seems very unlikely, and someone making it up seems more likely than it being true. To me anyway.

In case you haven't noticed yet, I'm a very practical and logical person. :crazy:

[XxFeaRLeSsxX]

Non-religious. I am against religion. It just seems very unlikely, and someone making it up seems more likely than it being true. To me anyway.

In case you haven't noticed yet, I'm a very practical and logical person. :crazy:

That's another way of looking at it, but religious does comfort people at times, no matter how unlikely it seems :nod:

[007vader]

I am religious always have been.

Non-religious. I am against religion. It just seems very unlikely, and someone making it up seems more likely than it being true. To me anyway.

In case you haven't noticed yet, I'm a very practical and logical person. :crazy:

Interesting it seems the opposite to me but I guess that just has to do with what view you started with or how you were influenced.

[Alphonse]

Not really a big religios person.

[lathandien]

im not really religious. its not that i hate religion, its just that i hate people who are TOTAL nutheads and say crap like GOD WILLS It and those idiots who say they are invincible cause of god. RELIGION: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe. now thats a reasonable definition. but it gets unreasonable when people start to think that god has created him blah blah blah you get the whole idea, if you played ffx just look at seymour when you fight him inside sin. hes one of those religious freaks. sorry for these long and drawn out explanations.

[Halfmetal]

im not really religious. its not that i hate religion, its just that i hate people who are TOTAL nutheads and say crap like GOD WILLS It and those idiots who say they are invincible cause of god. RELIGION: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe. now thats a reasonable definition. but it gets unreasonable when people start to think that god has created him blah blah blah you get the whole idea, if you played ffx just look at seymour when you fight him inside sin. hes one of those religious freaks. sorry for these long and drawn out explanations.

I'm religious but i'm not like that. But you can't help but hate those weirdos that constantly try and tell you they've got it right. There are some athiests like that though. Richard Dawkins is a fine example.

[Dream Machine]

Richard Dawkins is not a fine example of anything like what you are suggesting. A 'radical' athiest will disagree with you, maybe very bluntly (as he does). A radical religious person will probably advocate some sort of torture or murder in the name of thier God. See the difference?

I've read the Bible and the Koran. Both seem at best fairytale nonsense and at worst very dangerous. I suggest you all read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. He puts forward a very intelligent arguement against religion.

If someone put a gun to my head and said choose something religious I could say I accept a small possibility of a Deist God, though on the whole I am a staunch Athiest.

A quick side-note that I want to bring up because someone else will undoubtedly do so. Hitler was a Christian, not an athiest. He advocated 'Positive Christianity' and painted Jesus as a freedom-fighter against the Jews. Forms of extreme Marxism (as in North Korea) make people into Living Gods and demand the same sort of belief as 'Spiritual' religions and as such can be considered a 'Civil Religion'.

[Halfmetal]

I've read the Bible and the Koran. Both seem at best fairytale nonsense and at worst very dangerous. I suggest you all read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. He puts forward a very intelligent arguement against religion.

I have read that book. I have also read the The Dawkins Delusion by Alister McGrath and The Dawkins Confusion by Alvin Plantiga.

I would recommend the Puzzle of God by Peter Vardy. It's textbook non-bias and is very easy to understand.

By the way, I was not talking about a radical religious person. Anyway, you mught want to learn more about Joseph Stalin's relationship with religion.

[Dream Machine]

Joesph Stalin = worship (cult of personality) + civil religion, again same thing. Plus he kept the churches open to more easily control the people.

I've read the Dawkins Delusion and the problem with it is that it comes from a theologeans(sp?) point of veiw so throughly that it doesn't feel informative or objective at all. I mean Dawkins very obviously has an agenda (and makes no effort to hide that). But his work just seems more fact-based. I'll have to look up that Puzzle of God book.

Of course without religion the world wouldn't be lovely and perfect, but it'd be a start. one quote I really like that sums it up for me is

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

[Halfmetal]

Joesph Stalin = worship (cult of personality) + civil religion, again same thing. Plus he kept the churches open to more easily control the people.

Yes, but that's not the same thing now is it? The Cult of Personality wasn't a religion becuase Joseph Stalin was an athiest. Keeping the churches open was, like you said, for power, and not because his evil was fuelled by religion.


I've read the Dawkins Delusion and the problem with it is that it comes from a theologeans(sp?) point of veiw so throughly that it doesn't feel informative or objective at all. I mean Dawkins very obviously has an agenda (and makes no effort to hide that). But his work just seems more fact-based. I'll have to look up that Puzzle of God book.

You do realise that most Commentators have thought the book was a little more on the subjective side. I certainly thought so. Dawkins himself has often been described as an "atheist fundamentalist"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Delusion#Reviews

Also, The Dawkins Confusion by Richard Swinburne is a little more fact based. I do not agree with that The Dawkins Delusion was all subjective. It may have only got 3 reviews but all three were pretty good.


Of course without religion the world wouldn't be lovely and perfect, but it'd be a start. one quote I really like that sums it up for me is

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Well I guess that's just opinion then. Mine is different (Obviously)

Personally I don't see why Dawkins must be so intolerant. He himself admitted there's no garuntee that god doesn't exist, but acts as if it doesn't. The facts could be wrong. People rarely have the last word in philosophy. He could show a little bit more respect towards relgion, just in case, oh I don't know, he's not completely right.

[Dream Machine]

Respecting the idea of a God and respecting a religion are two exclusive ideas and you can have one without the other. How am I meant to respect misogynistic, racist, homophobic, violent pieces of litriture?

On Stalin, what I'm saying is with people and ideas so respected they are immune to any of the normal rules governing opinion, they are religion-like. Usually these ideas are manifest in ideas of a 'spiritual deity' with people prepared to be killed and kill for them. But this can also be extended to extreme nationalism (the concept of dieing for your country) or specific figures, like Stalin. Also doesn't the fact he could use the churches to control people speak masses?

I'm sure a lot of people gave his book negative reviews, I don't want to say that all of them were purely because of the weird respect people have for religion AND/OR the people being religious zealots themselves, I'm sure some just disagree with his research, wording and reasoning. A lot do seem to focus on his 'harsh tones' then on the actual content though.

Look at Scientology, prior to its conception the creator (a science-fiction writer) said the best way to make lots of money is to create a religion. This can be extended by also saying its the best way to control.

We dismiss Scientology as nonsense (well most sane people do) but why not other religions? Aern't thier ideas equally as ridiculous. They were obviously written by men too. 'Martyr yourself and recieve 21 virgins' Why would paraidse be seen as 21 virgins waiting on you hand and foot? 'Women feel pain in childbirth because of Eve giving into temptation' So women deserve pain? Thats progressive. Also think of the whole idea of that. The temptation of knowledge, to seek out truths is wrong?

Its funny as its 'only a video game' but FFX shows religion quite well. Springing up from wholly unspirtual circumstances, a placater for the people of Spira. Used to control. people who don't identify with Yevon are hated and feared. the hypocrisy of the temples. The Catholics and nowadays the Evangelicals of America should know all about hypocrisy.

I'm sorry but to me, religion will always be posionous.

[Halfmetal]

Respecting the idea of a God and respecting a religion are two exclusive ideas and you can have one without the other. How am I meant to respect misogynistic, racist, homophobic, violent pieces of litriture?

Fair point. But I didn't ask you respect misogynistic, racist, homophobic, violent pieces of litriture.


On Stalin, what I'm saying is with people and ideas so respected they are immune to any of the normal rules governing opinion, they are religion-like. Usually these ideas are manifest in ideas of a 'spiritual deity' with people prepared to be killed and kill for them. But this can also be extended to extreme nationalism (the concept of dieing for your country) or specific figures, like Stalin. Also doesn't the fact he could use the churches to control people speak masses?

That's just religion being used by people, not people being used by religion. If I throw my Nintendo Wii against a wall and it breaks should I balme Nintendo for not making it hard enough?
Keith Ward makes good comments on this on his book 'Is Religion Evil?'


I'm sure a lot of people gave his book negative reviews, I don't want to say that all of them were purely because of the weird respect people have for religion AND/OR the people being religious zealots themselves, I'm sure some just disagree with his research, wording and reasoning. A lot do seem to focus on his 'harsh tones' then on the actual content though.

I agree but I would have to diagree with your last statement. The actual content is focused on a lot. I'm sure many of them were religious zealots but that doesn't nessecarily mean they can't make unbias criticism.


Look at Scientology, prior to its conception the creator (a science-fiction writer) said the best way to make lots of money is to create a religion. This can be extended by also saying its the best way to control.

A good person can use a pen to write genius works. A bad person could use a pen to stab a man in the neck and kill him.


We dismiss Scientology as nonsense (well most sane people do) but why not other religions? Aern't thier ideas equally as ridiculous. They were obviously written by men too. 'Martyr yourself and recieve 21 virgins' Why would paraidse be seen as 21 virgins waiting on you hand and foot? 'Women feel pain in childbirth because of Eve giving into temptation' So women deserve pain? Thats progressive. Also think of the whole idea of that. The temptation of knowledge, to seek out truths is wrong?

I think your reading a bit too much into these things. I doubt 21 virgins would be the ONLY thing waiting in paradise after you've martyred yourself. The second one's funny though. Where did you get that?

It wasn't the temptation of knowledge that was wrong. It was disobedience. Sometimes temtation of knowledge IS wrong. Haven't you ever heard of the phrase "curiosity killed the cat".


Its funny as its 'only a video game' but FFX shows religion quite well. Springing up from wholly unspirtual circumstances, a placater for the people of Spira. Used to control. people who don't identify with Yevon are hated and feared. the hypocrisy of the temples. The Catholics and nowadays the Evangelicals of America should know all about hypocrisy.

You are joking right? Please specify which religions spring up from wholly unspirtual circumstances are used to control and are hypocritical.


I'm sorry but to me, religion will always be posionous.

People who use religion will be poisonous. They can change you know.

[007vader]

Dream Machine I'm disappointed in you. I can't believe you of all people would make such a blatantly assumptive and stereotyping statement as what you have just said.

I admitted I was wrong about the whole gay thing. And you were right I was making assumptions and generalizing. But I can't believe you would turn around and say "Religion is poisonous" right after trying to convince me not to be assumptive of gays.
There are extremists in all beliefs. And a lot of dictators were religious and a lot were not. It's because there are lot of bad people in the world some religious and some not. It's just that Christians get a bad wrap for being the ones that are supposed to be good and all aren't.
And as I'm sure you would know it doesn't say in the Bible to go and conquer the world or force Christianity upon other people. It's just a messed up interpretation of it. And I don't think Hitler was trying to convince people to be Christians.

Of course without religion the world wouldn't be lovely and perfect, but it'd be a start. one quote I really like that sums it up for me is

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

That's an interesting thing to say. Here's a question for you what defines right and wrong. As an atheist. And I want a specific definition too, not just "Well.. there's just right and wrong". I have one, whats yours?

[Halfmetal]

Most Athiests would no doubt be Humanists. Richard Dawkins is one so I'm guessing Dream Machine would be one.

I do find it weird, however, that when some people experience and come to hate one extreme end of the wing, they end up supporting the other extreme end of the wing.

[Dream Machine]

The problem I'm having I suppose is I don't see my beliefs as extrme, because I don't want to hurt anyone. Inflicting any sort of pain goes against my beliefs.

I don't think Christians/Muslims/etc are bad exactly, more the things they are taught are bad because they run contrary to how I believe people should behave.

The Old Testament of the Bible was a horrible piece of work, do you know the story of Sodom? Two Male angels went to see Lot and tell him that God selected him and his family as the only ones who were worth saving. The entire city then demanded that they may 'know the angels' or in other words rape them. So Lot instead gave his daughters up to be gang-raped. Later on as they city was destroyed Lot's wife looked at the city and for this one small act was turned into a pillar of salt. Later Lot and his two daughters lived in a cave, his two daughters getting him drunk night after night, sleeping with him and getting pregnant. See how I can view things like this as immoral?

I haven't any quarrel with most religious people, just thier belief system which I find harmful.

@007vader: To borrow Dawkins arguement, are you telling me that if you didn't believe in God you would steal, rape and murder as a matter of course? I sure hope not. Humans are societal animals, it doesn't make sense for us to want to harm each other. Thats why empathy exists.

It wasn't the temptation of knowledge that was wrong. It was disobedience. Sometimes temtation of knowledge IS wrong. Haven't you ever heard of the phrase "curiosity killed the cat".

See I've always had the belief that persuit for knowledge is the highest thing mankind can do, so long as it harms no-one obviously.

I think your reading a bit too much into these things. I doubt 21 virgins would be the ONLY thing waiting in paradise after you've martyred yourself. The second one's funny though. Where did you get that?

The whole point that 21 virgins are seen as something that would be in paradise is a bit sinister? Also is God advocating post-death polyamourous relationships prehaps? Or more likely the idea of a harem of concubines?

The second part is biblical, keep your wife quiet in church and all of that.

You are joking right? Please specify which religions spring up from wholly unspirtual circumstances are used to control and are hypocritical.

Well the modern ones are easily disproved, like scientology and mormonism. The old ones are harder because they've veiled themselves in contradictions and have been penned by hundreds of different nameless authors over a couple of centuries. But why are people so steadfast that these religions are true whereas the religions of the ancient Egyptians and Norse and Romans and such are false? Theres no difference between them really.

The hypocritical part comes from many places. Catholic priests abusing young children whilst going on about sin. Evangelicals protesting against aborting unthinking foetuses yet advocating aggresive foriegn policies to kill people in the middle east with full-working brains for profit. Islam by its very nature is hypocritical it tells that homosexuality is unnatural, evil and wrong punishable by death if male and house arrest and lashings if female. But then what of Ghilman? Beautiful male angels that are written of in a homoerotic manner? Apparently sodomy is a 'pleasure reserved for the afterlife'.

[Halfmetal]

@007vader: To borrow Dawkins arguement, are you telling me that if you didn't believe in God you would steal, rape and murder as a matter of course? I sure hope not. Humans are societal animals, it doesn't make sense for us to want to harm each other. Thats why empathy exists.

I've always believed morality has more to do with psychology rather than biology. Mainly becuase there are many people in the world who lack empathy and which the causes can very easily be traced back to their childhood.


See I've always had the belief that persuit for knowledge is the highest thing mankind can do, so long as it harms no-one obviously.

I guess it comes down to opinion. I personally believe that obedience to God (supposing God exists) is higher than the persuit of knowledge. Yours is the opposite.


The whole point that 21 virgins are seen as something that would be in paradise is a bit sinister? Also is God advocating post-death polyamourous relationships prehaps? Or more likely the idea of a harem of concubines?

well as long as no one is harmed then I don't see how it can be sinister.


Well the modern ones are easily disproved, like scientology and mormonism. The old ones are harder because they've veiled themselves in contradictions and have been penned by hundreds of different nameless authors over a couple of centuries. But why are people so steadfast that these religions are true whereas the religions of the ancient Egyptians and Norse and Romans and such are false? Theres no difference between them really.

Having contradictions is a disprove itself. Egyptians, Norse and Roman gods, were made really to explain the workings on their earth. Then science came along. Religions like Judaism, Christanity and Islam and known to be more focused on morality and ethics.


The hypocritical part comes from many places. Catholic priests abusing young children whilst going on about sin. Evangelicals protesting against aborting unthinking foetuses yet advocating aggresive foriegn policies to kill people in the middle east with full-working brains for profit. Islam by its very nature is hypocritical it tells that homosexuality is unnatural, evil and wrong punishable by death if male and house arrest and lashings if female. But then what of Ghilman? Beautiful male angels that are written of in a homoerotic manner? Apparently sodomy is a 'pleasure reserved for the afterlife'.

The Catholic and Evangelical examples are just another example of hypocritical people.

Concerning the Islam one, homosexuality is not strictly against the Quran but the unnatural (and biologically speaking, it is) acts (bum sex) are, becuase, well, they're unnatural. It's not in paradise becuase the Ghilman were made also for such acts.

[007vader]

I haven't any quarrel with most religious people, just their belief system which I find harmful.So you're telling me that the laws I build my life around to help me to be a better person are harmful to the world? How many Christians have you met in normal circumstances? Because you're generalizing in an extreme sense.

@007vader: To borrow Dawkins argument, are you telling me that if you didn't believe in God you would steal, rape and murder as a matter of course? I sure hope not. Humans are societal animals, it doesn't make sense for us to want to harm each other. Thats why empathy exists.You missed the point. I mean what, in your belief system, defines right from wrong? And answer the question this time.

And are you sure empathy exists? Or is it actually just something that comes from your upbringing? Think about the civilizations that existed on their own without the laws of the Bible. The Aztecs, a large number of the American Indians, many tribes in Africa, The Pharaohs, most Asian cultures. Most ancient civilizations did terrible things without those laws and the civilizations that prospered and grew most civilized are the ones that did know those laws. And yes I know all of those ones had their problems too. But one thing you may notice too is that America had hardly advanced at all until Christianity got here.

So in answer to you question, yes people will harm each other if left to their own devices. We will gather in groups but we are bad at heart and without at least some laws to govern us we will do bad things together or alone. You are good because of the world you have been raised in. Not because you are just a good person. But because of the laws that modern society is built on you have been affected positively. And you may notice that those laws are very similar to the ones laid down in the bible. In fact many of them were based off those laws.

[Dream Machine]

I've always believed morality has more to do with psychology rather than biology. Mainly becuase there are many people in the world who lack empathy and which the causes can very easily be traced back to their childhood.

I think it's a mix of both, having a bad childhood with an abusive parent for example could warp your personal ethics in some way. But humans are a very social animal, we are too complicated to be defined by geners or upbringing. It's almost certainly a mixture of both.


well as long as no one is harmed then I don't see how it can be sinister.

I'll admit I'm ignorant of a lot of the virgin mythology, but either way it seems quite wrong to me. if they were once human women then paradise for them is serving men? if they are sentient beings created by Allah then it doesn't strike you as wrong to create beings that casn think but whose only purpose is to bring pleasure to men? if they are unthinking robot-like things then I suppose its alright.



Having contradictions is a disprove itself. Egyptians, Norse and Roman gods, were made really to explain the workings on their earth. Then science came along. Religions like Judaism, Christanity and Islam and known to be more focused on morality and ethics.

Those religions were also created to explain creation of the earth. Scientific theories have all but surpassed them in my opinion. They pewrservere because they appeal to certain aspects of humanity we want; a purpose to life, awnsers to big questions, the whole idea of a 'father' looking over us, etc.



The Catholic and Evangelical examples are just another example of hypocritical people.

Concerning the Islam one, homosexuality is not strictly against the Quran but the unnatural (and biologically speaking, it is) acts (bum sex) are, becuase, well, they're unnatural. It's not in paradise becuase the Ghilman were made also for such acts.

Wait. You seriously believe that a book that denounces 'bumsex' as you so eloquently put it, can then create a vessel for it in the afterlife and not call it hypocritical. Thats like saying you can mug people in heaven.


So you're telling me that the laws I build my life around to help me to be a better person are harmful to the world? How many Christians have you met in normal circumstances? Because you're generalizing in an extreme sense.

I don't like to give arguments based on personal experience but for example, at school when hearing that i didn't believe in God Christians reacted angrily and insulted me and some Muslims actually deemed it fit to become violent toward me. This is in London, not some backwards town somewhere.

Jesus' mantra was for the most part positive, however a lot of people take the Old Testament as fact and that is a horrible book.

You missed the point. I mean what, in your belief system, defines right from wrong? And answer the question this time.

A lot of things help me have a sense of right and wrong. At its most basic we know something is a good deed as it helps someone and something else is bad as it hurts them. I do believe biological factors that make us social animals are in a large part responsible for our generally alturistic natures.

You don't need religion to be a good person, my mother doesn't believe in God and she raised me to be polite person who tries to thinks of others feeling as wll as my own. Again this can be treaced back to the 'I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine' element that is common to social animals.

And are you sure empathy exists? Or is it actually just something that comes from your upbringing? Think about the civilizations that existed on their own without the laws of the Bible. The Aztecs, a large number of the American Indians, many tribes in Africa, The Pharaohs, most Asian cultures. Most ancient civilizations did terrible things without those laws and the civilizations that prospered and grew most civilized are the ones that did know those laws. And yes I know all of those ones had their problems too. But one thing you may notice too is that America had hardly advanced at all until Christianity got here.

So in answer to you question, yes people will harm each other if left to their own devices. We will gather in groups but we are bad at heart and without at least some laws to govern us we will do bad things together or alone. You are good because of the world you have been raised in. Not because you are just a good person. But because of the laws that modern society is built on you have been affected positively. And you may notice that those laws are very similar to the ones laid down in the bible. In fact many of them were based off those laws.

Empathy exists, people have the potential to do the most incredible good or evil. People don't inherently have a good or bad heart as you put it.

The world you're rised in argument shows something interesting about 'good' and 'bad' people. Think of children in lebanon, they hate the Isrealis. Now they've grown up eqauting Isreal with domination, they've probably had family members kidnapped and killed and they know that they are the ones bombing them. kids in lebanon have no access to the internet, due to horribly restrictive laws they can't leave thier country. Now they are obviously going to grow up hating Isreal and no-one could stop that. Would you call them 'bad'? I'd call them a product of circumstance.

On the whole issue of Isreal, it makes no sense to displace people because of what some old book said about it being a 'promised land' or some other nonsense. If America and Britain wanted to give thema country so bad, then why not a slice of theirs? Religion again, but I digress.

Many pre-abrahmic societys had some similar laws to what we have now. In general people not killing each other out of habit is more productive than the adverse.

The founding fathers of America were generaly deist, agnostic or athiest, they'd be horrified to see the ten commandments in public buildings. People misunderstand the ten commandments anyway, Thou Shalt Not Kill actually means Thou Shalt Not Kill a Jew and so on.

[Lifrasthir]

I don't like to give arguments based on personal experience but for example, at school when hearing that i didn't believe in God Christians reacted angrily and insulted me and some Muslims actually deemed it fit to become violent toward me. This is in London, not some backwards town somewhere.

Dunno if I have any say in this but....Those Christians who reacted angrily to you really didn't have a right. Same goes toward those Muslims....I mean, I would love to see you accept that there is a god, and he is Jesus Christ but I'm not gunna get mad at you 'cause you don't. It's like those Christians expected you to believe in something that you just don't see or want to believe in.


You don't need religion to be a good person, my mother doesn't believe in God and she raised me to be polite person who tries to thinks of others feeling as wll as my own. Again this can be treaced back to the 'I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine' element that is common to social animals.

I do have to agree that you don't need "religion" to be a good person. Example: There is an organization called Half The Sky that goes around to orphanages in China, doing different things I believe. (Don't know exactly what though.) They aren't a Christian organization but what they do is Christian-like....

[007vader]

I don't like to give arguments based on personal experience but for example, at school when hearing that i didn't believe in God Christians reacted angrily and insulted me and some Muslims actually deemed it fit to become violent toward me. This is in London, not some backwards town somewhere.

Hmm... Well I know that a bad experience can mean lot. Yes some Christians are like that, some aren't. It's just that most people tend to be mean to people that don't agree with them. For example I know someone that has had that same experience only she was the Christian and everyone else was mean to her. Not violent as you said happened to you but still mean. So we all get picked on for our beliefs so don't think you're the only one being picked on and Christians are the only ones picking on others. We all do that Christians and non Christian alike.

Jesus' mantra was for the most part positive, however a lot of people take the Old Testament as fact and that is a horrible book.

Why wouldn't they? The Bible is believed to all be fact. Now if you mean that they take the Old Testament to be particularly relevant then that makes more sense.
Although I'm not sure I see what you think is so bad about it. It's not all positive I suppose but the people in the Bible were still humans and still did bad things. God didn't order them to do evil things, unless you count going to war to expand their civilization as evil.

A lot of things help me have a sense of right and wrong. At its most basic we know something is a good deed as it helps someone and something else is bad as it hurts them. I do believe biological factors that make us social animals are in a large part responsible for our generally alturistic natures.

You don't need religion to be a good person, my mother doesn't believe in God and she raised me to be polite person who tries to thinks of others feeling as wll as my own. Again this can be treaced back to the 'I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine' element that is common to social animals.

Again this all comes back to the culture you and your mother grew up in.
If the culture you grew up in hadn't been so heavily influenced by Christianity then it's idea of good or bad would be different. The laws that modern society live by are very similar to the ones in the Bible and so without them they would be different.
And you may notice that the countries do the best are the ones most heavily influenced by Christianity in their past. I.E. Europe and America.


Empathy exists, people have the potential to do the most incredible good or evil. People don't inherently have a good or bad heart as you put it.
Yes and no. People do inherently have a desire to do bad. Think about it everyone has been tempted to do bad things so without any reason not to do them we just would.
The world you're rised in argument shows something interesting about 'good' and 'bad' people. Think of children in lebanon, they hate the Isrealis. Now they've grown up equating Isreal with domination, they've probably had family members kidnapped and killed and they know that they are the ones bombing them. kids in lebanon have no access to the internet, due to horribly restrictive laws they can't leave thier country. Now they are obviously going to grow up hating Isreal and no-one could stop that. Would you call them 'bad'? I'd call them a product of circumstance.

Exactly!! The society you grow up in greatly influences the way you turn out. As I said before. So if they are a "product of circumstance" what does that make everyone else. A positive product of circumstance.

On the whole issue of Isreal, it makes no sense to displace people because of what some old book said about it being a 'promised land' or some other nonsense. If America and Britain wanted to give them a country so bad, then why not a slice of theirs? Religion again, but I digress.
How did you come to blame religion for that? If everyone from poverty stricken countries moved to a different country or if a country gave it all of its resources to help them we would all become poverty stricken due to a sever balance disruption. We just can't help them until they can help themselves somewhat.

Many pre-abrahmic societies had some similar laws to what we have now. In general people not killing each other out of habit is more productive than the adverse.

Yes, people within a group generally will not kill each other pointlessly. But you may notice that most cultures were very warlike. And that's what I was referring to when I talked about the Indians and the people in Africa. they didn't kill the people in their own group because ya thats not gonna get them anywhere. But many of the Indian tribes in America and Africa were brutal people. But not in their own tribes.

The founding fathers of America were generaly deist, agnostic or athiest, they'd be horrified to see the ten commandments in public buildings. People misunderstand the ten commandments anyway, Thou Shalt Not Kill actually means Thou Shalt Not Kill a Jew and so on.

No the ten commandments do not mean that. They meant do not kill in general. That doesn't mean everyone could followed them at the time they were written due to the wars going on.


And one thing about religion in general. They say that necessity is the mother of invention. Well if all people had thought that there was nothing greater than them and once they died they would be dead and that's it. There would be very little necessity for anything. It would all be instant gratification.
All the great achievements of ancient man were in the pursuit of eternal life or to appease the god ands so forth. So saying the world would be better off without religion is very naive. We wouldn't be were we are if it weren't for religion. And if religion wasn't needed then every ancient culture in the world wouldn't have had a god or gods to worship.
Man needs religion and without it we wouldn't be where we are.

[Halfmetal]

Dream machine, it seems you have a lot to respond to already so I wouldn't mind if this would take you long to reply to. Take your time.

I think it's a mix of both, having a bad childhood with an abusive parent for example could warp your personal ethics in some way. But humans are a very social animal, we are too complicated to be defined by geners or upbringing. It's almost certainly a mixture of both.

Well I've yet to see any actual evidence of genes playing a part but it's a plausable hypothesis.


I'll admit I'm ignorant of a lot of the virgin mythology, but either way it seems quite wrong to me. if they were once human women then paradise for them is serving men? if they are sentient beings created by Allah then it doesn't strike you as wrong to create beings that casn think but whose only purpose is to bring pleasure to men? if they are unthinking robot-like things then I suppose its alright.

Well I haven't seen anything in the Quran that suggests that they have free-will.


Those religions were also created to explain creation of the earth. Scientific theories have all but surpassed them in my opinion. They pewrservere because they appeal to certain aspects of humanity we want; a purpose to life, awnsers to big questions, the whole idea of a 'father' looking over us, etc.

Look you can believe that if you want to but I don't think the Quran certainly was. Only the Torah and the Bible have Creationist accounts in them and we believe that the Torah was corrupted and was changed by men. Regarding the Bible. well, that was in fact created by men.


Wait. You seriously believe that a book that denounces 'bumsex' as you so eloquently put it, can then create a vessel for it in the afterlife and not call it hypocritical. Thats like saying you can mug people in heaven.

You are merely repeating your point there. It isn't really like mugging people in heaven. Like I said, the intentions aren't bad. Just the act. The intention of mugging someone is definately bad.

By the way, you are NOT good at getting a joke:lol:.


I don't like to give arguments based on personal experience but for example, at school when hearing that i didn't believe in God Christians reacted angrily and insulted me and some Muslims actually deemed it fit to become violent toward me. This is in London, not some backwards town somewhere.

Well, if their attitude towards you can't be justified using the origins of their beliefs (Holy books) then that doesn't count for anything. They were wrong by they're own standards. certainly the Muslims. I don't know enough about the Christians to defend them but I'm sure if they were truly following jesus's example they wouldn't have done that. Don't blame their Religion. Blame them.

[Rophe]

Atheist

In my opinion 'radicals' are anyone who pressures others into believing what they believe.

I also hate the way many people group people together, I know a load of arseholes in my school who put all muslims in with terrorist bombers, it's not quite as extreme as that but everyone puts atheists in the same group too.

In my opinion Religion was created ages past by people who needed purpose in life, i see no need for humanity to have a purpose so I do not feel the need for religion. It is similar to the fact that older people often turn to religion because they do not wish to see the end coming soon.

Obviously I could be wrong, but I feel that people who stick with a religion are too sure of themselves. Of all the possibilities most theists and most atheists pick too specific an idea, for example, I believe in the Oscillating Universe theory (big bang to big crunch) which means that there are an infinite number of universes where every possible eventuality will play out, so there will be an inifnite number of universes where people all believe in God and there will be an infinite number where no one does.

This theory is absolutely impossible to prove but means that all coincidences will happen however unlikely, so anything about which people say 'this can't have happened by accident' will have happened an infinite number of times by accident.

[Halfmetal]

Atheist

Obviously I could be wrong, but I feel that people who stick with a religion are too sure of themselves. Of all the possibilities most theists and most atheists pick too specific an idea, for example, I believe in the Oscillating Universe theory (big bang to big crunch) which means that there are an infinite number of universes where every possible eventuality will play out, so there will be an inifnite number of universes where people all believe in God and there will be an infinite number where no one does.

This theory is absolutely impossible to prove but means that all coincidences will happen however unlikely, so anything about which people say 'this can't have happened by accident' will have happened an infinite number of times by accident.

OOOOoh. I've wanted to say this for SOOOOOO long!

Are you sure about that infinite theory??!?!? You shouldn't be.

Because what you are suggesting is an infinite regress of cause and effect. That's logically impossible!

And infinite regress of cause and effect logically implies an inifinite regress of time! NOOOOOOOO!
There can't be an inifinite regress of time! Think about it! What's infinite divided by two? INFINITE! Is this new infinite any smaller than the old inifinite? NOOOOOO!
So take a section out of an infinite amount of time then? That would be an infinite amount of time!
How about the section between the year 1990 and 1991? That would be an infinite amount of time. An infinite amount of years between the space of 1 year!!!!!!!!!
What's infinite plus 1? INFINITE! Is that Infinite any bigger? NOOOOOO!
So time doesn't increase! It's the same constant vaule always. Infact, that added one will become (You guessed it) an INFINITE, amount of time! By the time you will have finished reading all this an infinite amount of seconds will have passed. An infinite amount of years will have passed.

YOU SHOULD BE DEAD BY NOW!!!!!!!

[Hitoshura]

I am Christian, so therefore I have my own beliefs.

But, is there any kind of proof to prove that a certain religion really exists?

[Rophe]

OOOOoh. I've wanted to say this for SOOOOOO long!

Are you sure about that infinite theory??!?!? You shouldn't be.

Because what you are suggesting is an infinite regress of cause and effect. That's logically impossible!

And infinite regress of cause and effect logically implies an inifinite regress of time! NOOOOOOOO!
There can't be an inifinite regress of time! Think about it! What's infinite divided by two? INFINITE! Is this new infinite any smaller than the old inifinite? NOOOOOO!
So take a section out of an infinite amount of time then? That would be an infinite amount of time!
How about the section between the year 1990 and 1991? That would be an infinite amount of time. An infinite amount of years between the space of 1 year!!!!!!!!!
What's infinite plus 1? INFINITE! Is that Infinite any bigger? NOOOOOO!
So time doesn't increase! It's the same constant vaule always. Infact, that added one will become (You guessed it) an INFINITE, amount of time! By the time you will have finished reading all this an infinite amount of seconds will have passed. An infinite amount of years will have passed.

YOU SHOULD BE DEAD BY NOW!!!!!!!

Basically, when confront with a valid argument, half of which I don't understand I respond with:

If there is an infintie number of universes you were always going to say that, and there wouldalso be an infinite number in which I would come up with a witty and valid retort rather than ranting on as I am now doing. So :P

And stop proving me wrong damnit!

But as always, people are reluctant to give up beliefs and I am no different.

Hmm...had a thought. What would be 1/infinity of infinity?

[Rophe]

Okay, had some time to think and here it goes:

Right, obviously we must give time a unit, that being years/days/hours/seconds etc, similar to distance in cm, m and km and weight being g and kg right? So the infinite time of the universe can be called infinity years yes? So the time period between 1990 and 1991 would be 1/infinity of infinity years because 1/infinity of infinity is infinity divided by infinity yeah? And that would be one. So 2 years would be 2/infinity.

Is that logical?

[Halfmetal]

Okay, had some time to think and here it goes:

Right, obviously we must give time a unit, that being years/days/hours/seconds etc, similar to distance in cm, m and km and weight being g and kg right? So the infinite time of the universe can be called infinity years yes? So the time period between 1990 and 1991 would be 1/infinity of infinity years because 1/infinity of infinity is infinity divided by infinity yeah? And that would be one. So 2 years would be 2/infinity.

Is that logical?

WAAAA? 1/infinity of infinity? I lost you there.

[Rophe]

Like a fifth is 1/5. I just would have no idea how to spell and infinity-eth.

[Halfmetal]

Oh, so 1/infinity of infinity is equal to an infinity-eth?

Well, unfortunatly an infinity-eth is still equal to infinity which no smaller or larger than the orginal infinity.

Any way, that 2 would aslo equal infinity in the same way that the one would. So by your own logic 2/infinity would also equal one.

It is impossible to make any sort of unit because that depends on comparison. Like the number 345 is only 345 because 345-0 = 345.

[Rophe]

Nah, 1/infinity is an infinity-eth. So 1/infinity of infinity would be 1.

I guess it all depends on whether you can treat infinity like any other number...whether some of the normal principles apply.

[Ringlets]

im pretty sure infinity refers to a term, not a number. it means a number beyond our human recognition, so one persons idea of numeral infinity may be higher or lower than someone elses, so 1/infinity of infinity = infinity could mean any infinity number

[Rophe]

Well, in the terms of an infinite regress of time it would mean the last number, so it would always be the same.


Epic Win! :dance:

[Halfmetal]

Unfortunately, it doesn't equal one:

http://www.philforhumanity.com/Infinity_Divided_by_Infinity.html

HA! HA! You lose!

[Rophe]

I will refer you to my previous answer:

Infinity in my theory of the universe is only called on infinity out of easiness. Forever is a better word for it. Infinity in your sense is the term Ringlets described, where infinity can always be different, 'forever' or 'eternity' is one set number (being the final one despite that not existing, hence it being eternity). The idea of eternity could not be added to, it being final. Ill admit that if this argument was about infinity as it is generally used you would be correct, where infinity is variable, but it is not.

This is really hard to describe...

you think of infinity as being an incomprehensible number right? Well, then what I am calling eternity is the final one, and is not a variable, you understand what I'm saying? Therefore it would be treated differently to what 'infinity' is for it would be a set number, albeit an incomprehensible one.

[Halfmetal]

WAAAAA?!?

I don't get you. You do realise that by defintion, Eternity means infinite time?
The final number can not possibly exist in infinity. It would also be an ncomprehensible number.

Gotta go now.

[Ringlets]

Averting massive tangent for massive damage, and...

im not religious

[Rophe]

WAAAAA?!?

I don't get you. You do realise that by defintion, Eternity means infinite time?
The final number can not possibly exist in infinity. It would also be an ncomprehensible number.

Gotta go now.

Argh, its really hard to describe...Ill have one last go...

Right, I called it eternity to make it different from Infinity, perhaps there just isn't a word for what Im thinking of...

Well 0.0recurring1 is impossible right? Yet it would be the first positive number (Im discounting 0 because that is neither +ve nor -ve) Well, imagine the last positive number, equally impossible yes? But also not a variable, because it is the last. This is the number Im tring to explain. It is an infinite number just as 0.0recurring1 is.

And its obviously going to be incomprehensible as it is the last in a chain of incomprehensible numbers, if you have a chain of 5 ones the last is still a one isn't it?

You have to understand that this is all theoretical.

[007vader]

The whole direction of this thread just changed drastically. And now I feel dizzy. :wacko:

[Halfmetal]

Argh, its really hard to describe...Ill have one last go...

Right, I called it eternity to make it different from Infinity, perhaps there just isn't a word for what Im thinking of...

Well 0.0recurring1 is impossible right? Yet it would be the first positive number (Im discounting 0 because that is neither +ve nor -ve) Well, imagine the last positive number, equally impossible yes? But also not a variable, because it is the last. This is the number Im tring to explain. It is an infinite number just as 0.0recurring1 is.

And its obviously going to be incomprehensible as it is the last in a chain of incomprehensible numbers, if you have a chain of 5 ones the last is still a one isn't it?

You have to understand that this is all theoretical.

Okay, but I don't see how that makes much difference.

[Rophe]

The page you posted on infinity/infinity = 1 only doesn't work when Infinity is a variable (where infinity +1 = infinity) The last number could not be added to, it would not be a variable so last number +1 would not be possible, and lastnumber - 1 would not equal lastnumber, rather lastnumber-1. Time cannot be variable so it cannot be represent by a variable infinity but by what I am now calling lastnumber.

[Halfmetal]

It doesn't really make sense to say that the last number can't be added to as the last number can't exist. Like you said, it's impossible. Besides, the lastnumber would imply a start and finish.

[Rophe]

Lastnumber is a hypothetical number, Im using because it is a term of measurement (a measurement of time) rather than just a number.

[Ringlets]

OH MY GOD SHUT UP. Just agree that god created the earth in seven days, and that he will end it when he sees fit.

[Rophe]

But you don't even believe that.

As I have said previously, people are always stubborn to give up beliefs and I am no different. I am, unfortunately, more stubborn than most people.

[Halfmetal]

As I have said previously, people are always stubborn to give up beliefs and I am no different. I am, unfortunately, more stubborn than most people.

That's good. it shows you have faith in your beliefs.


Lastnumber is a hypothetical number, Im using because it is a term of measurement (a measurement of time) rather than just a number.

Yes but the last number itself, is impossible to measure. How on earth do you use it as a measurement? Oh you are starting to give me headaches now. Just just start from the beginning.

Please edit where nesseccary.

"Okay, had some time to think and here it goes:

Right, obviously we must give time a unit, that being years/days/hours/seconds etc, similar to distance in cm, m and km and weight being g and kg right? So the infinite time of the universe can be called infinity years yes? So the time period between 1990 and 1991 would be 1/infinity of infinity years because 1/infinity of infinity is infinity divided by infinity yeah? And that would be one. So 2 years would be 2/infinity.

Is that logical?"

[Ringlets]

Damn straight you're stubborn, Pat. I still dont see how most people hate opinions. Saying "i dont believe in god" to some people instantly makes them hate you, as though you've insulted them some how.

[Phoenixmaid]

Damn straight you're stubborn, Pat. I still dont see how most people hate opinions. Saying "i dont believe in god" to some people instantly makes them hate you, as though you've insulted them some how.

Unfortunatly while most people will say everyone has a right to an opinion it doesn't mean those same people will actually listen to a differing opinion and take it for what it is. an opinion no more no less.

As for religion I don't think it makes difference if someone is christian,athiest,hindu, muslim or pagen. Worship as many or as few Gods as you like...cos if it makes life easier for you to bear and gives you hope that this all leads on to a better place. great.

There are always going to be people out there that will read into a belief only what they want to and use it for there own personal gain.
By the way I am a deeply religious person but my beliefs are just that mine. And yours are yours no matter which Religious catagory you fall into.

Phoenixmaid

[Demon Eyes]

Well man invented religion, therefor man invented its beliefs.:blink:

[Lifrasthir]

Well man invented religion, therefor man invented its beliefs.:blink:

I do not believe that is true. Of course I can be wrong but...well this culture says, "Live for yourself," "Live for today," "Life is short, do whatever you want to make yourself happy," etc. But Christianity says otherwise. So if Christianity were to be invented by man, why would 1. There be one holy God instead of god in all of us and 2. Wouldn't Christianity conform to the culture of the time and teach about the same things?

Now please please please please (x1,000,000) do not think that I don't value your beliefs or am downsizing them. I am just curious about what you believe and I respect what you believe.

[Demon Eyes]

Well a lot of modern christianity has evolved to fit the times, can't name one off the top of my head, as I don't delve into religion too often, but I can assure you they do exist. And the key thing here is you have to look at when christianity was invented. Around 2000 years ago or so. Back then it would have been pretty easy to introduce ideas that explain life/death to people who still thought the world was flat!:thumbsup:

[Halfmetal]

My point for the day:

Religion = Christianity. WRONG! <_<

[Lifrasthir]

Well a lot of modern christianity has evolved to fit the times, can't name one off the top of my head, as I don't delve into religion too often, but I can assure you they do exist. And the key thing here is you have to look at when christianity was invented. Around 2000 years ago or so. Back then it would have been pretty easy to introduce ideas that explain life/death to people who still thought the world was flat!:thumbsup:

I do agree that some Christians has become very secular in their beliefs...but others are different. Just because you say "Christianity" doesn't mean we're all going to believe the same things. Like a Baptist's beliefs might differ some from a Catholic's beliefs. They're all Christians but it there are different "sects." I do not believe that Christianity was "invented." Since I am a Christian, I believe that Christianity was always here. Just not as we see it and think about it today. I think that everyone has a desire to know God. And if not God, then a god. Though I could be off.

My point for the day:

Religion = Christianity. WRONG! <_<

Ha, you're right there Halfmetal.

[Demon Eyes]

Well it's not opinion, it's fact, Jesus Christ was a man who roamed the earth 2000 years ago. Before Christ, there was no christianity. He was in fact Jewish. He went around philosophizing and preaching his ideas and thoughts, developed a fan base(disciples). Then the brightest ones out of the bunch(the apostles) wrote the bible. Everything they have learned from Jesus. I believe he was a real man, I do not believe he was the son of god. I'm not Jewish either however. I look at him as merely another philosopher.

[Lifrasthir]

Well it's not opinion, it's fact, Jesus Christ was a man who roamed the earth 2000 years ago. Before Christ, there was no christianity. He was in fact Jewish. He went around philosophizing and preaching his ideas and thoughts, developed a fan base(disciples). Then the brightest ones out of the bunch(the apostles) wrote the bible. Everything they have learned from Jesus. I believe he was a real man, I do not believe he was the son of god. I'm not Jewish either however. I look at him as merely another philosopher.

Yes, Jesus roamed the Earth as a man for 33 years 2000 years ago. But the Old Testament was written before Christ came. It wasn't his ideas though. It was God's. (My beliefs.) The Bible was written by more than just the apostles though. There is Joshua, who helped write the book of Joshua. And plenty more. (Can't think of anymore yet.) They had not learned everything from Jesus, because again, there's the Old Testament.

[Demon Eyes]

My point for the day:

Religion = Christianity. WRONG! <_<


But.. all religion still was invented by man.

[Demon Eyes]

Yes, Jesus roamed the Earth as a man for 33 years 2000 years ago. But the Old Testament was written before Christ came. It wasn't his ideas though. It was God's. (My beliefs.) The Bible was written by more than just the apostles though. There is Joshua, who helped write the book of Joshua. And plenty more. (Can't think of anymore yet.) They had not learned everything from Jesus, because again, there's the Old Testament.

Alright, lets get to the source of this than. How did religion begin? Who introduced this idea of God to the people?

[007vader]

Alright, lets get to the source of this than. How did religion begin? Who introduced this idea of God to the people?
Well... God did when he created us. Don't you know the story of Adam and Eve?

(I hope I'm not intruding.)

[Demon Eyes]

I don't. So when were Adam and Eve created than? You mean Adam and Eve laid eyes upon God?

[007vader]

In the seven days that God made everything he made Adam and Eve the first two humans. And at that time yes he talked to them. I don't remember if they laid eyes on him exactly but he talked to them. You should probably read Genesis or at least the first few chapters. It's the very beginning of the Bible it'll only take a couple of minutes. That'll give you a good idea how we Christians believe it all started.

[Demon Eyes]

Won't genetics disprove this. How can you explain why Asian people look different than Africans, etc.

[Lifrasthir]

Won't genetics disprove this. How can you explain why Asian people look different than Africans, etc.

Well, since no one's ever tried how can you say it can? You trace your family tree aboutt 5,000 years ago and see what happens. It's impossible. I don't quite get why we have different races. Though I do believe it has something to do with the Tower of Babel.

[Devious]

The annoying thing about Christianity is that it can neither be proven or disproven. Dinosaur fossils were apparently put there by God to test our faith in him, and this can be applied to ALL scientific facts against Christianity.

People look different because after Adam and Eve populated the Earth, their decendents went to different parts of the earth to evolve and adapt to their homeland's climate and eventually rediscover each other. For example, people in Africa eventually developed dark skin to protect them from the sun, people in Europe didn't since there's not as much sun. The africans grew slightly stronger while the europeans grew slightly smarter. Even if everything originated from Adam and Eve, it's undeniable that humans do adapt and evolve.

Religion began either when A. When God created Adam God taught him to worship God or B. When a random philospher was wondering why everything came to be, and thought maybe there was someone out there controling everything. Then that idea spread and evolved until voila, Christianity was born.

[Demon Eyes]

The annoying thing about Christianity is that it can neither be proven or disproven. Dinosaur fossils were apparently put there by God to test our faith in him, and this can be applied to ALL scientific facts against Christianity.

People look different because after Adam and Eve populated the Earth, their decendents went to different parts of the earth to evolve and adapt to their homeland's climate and eventually rediscover each other. For example, people in Africa eventually developed dark skin to protect them from the sun, people in Europe didn't since there's not as much sun. The africans grew slightly stronger while the europeans grew slightly smarter. Even if everything originated from Adam and Eve, it's undeniable that humans do adapt and evolve.

Religion began either when A. When God created Adam God taught him to worship God or B. When a random philospher was wondering why everything came to be, and thought maybe there was someone out there controling everything. Then that idea spread and evolved until voila, Christianity was born.

Spot on Guvnah'!:thumbsup:

[Lifrasthir]

The annoying thing about Christianity is that it can neither be proven or disproven. Dinosaur fossils were apparently put there by God to test our faith in him, and this can be applied to ALL scientific facts against Christianity.

People look different because after Adam and Eve populated the Earth, their decendents went to different parts of the earth to evolve and adapt to their homeland's climate and eventually rediscover each other. For example, people in Africa eventually developed dark skin to protect them from the sun, people in Europe didn't since there's not as much sun. The africans grew slightly stronger while the europeans grew slightly smarter. Even if everything originated from Adam and Eve, it's undeniable that humans do adapt and evolve.

Religion began either when A. When God created Adam God taught him to worship God or B. When a random philospher was wondering why everything came to be, and thought maybe there was someone out there controling everything. Then that idea spread and evolved until voila, Christianity was born.

Oh, it's not just Christianity Rev-SQ, it's any religion really. How can you prove that Allah is there? How can you prove that the Hinduism gods are there? How can you prove that Yahweh is there? So it's basically all religions that can't be proven or disproven.

Well, I talked with my mom about the different races and she said that God must have made more humans because if he didn't, then Cain and Abel wouldn't have had wives. It doesn't say this in the Bible but it makes sense to me. I will have to ask my pastor about it and see what he thinks...

Once again, it's not just Christianity. It's all religions. Either A. Their god taught them to worship itself or B. A random philosopher wondered why everything is as it is and thought maybe there was a divine being or beings of some sort and voila, religion was born.

I, personally, do not know how someone could come up with everything in the the Bible. I don't know who could come up with the concept that man is evil by default and only those who accept Jesus Christ and follow his path will be saved. If Christianity is deciet, then that would basically make the creator of Christianity a hypocrite. Because the Bible says that God detests deciet (or something like that).

[Demon Eyes]

Well I may be wrong but I don't think Buddhists believe in an all powerful god who created the universe and man. And generally Christians follow the bible, which introduces the ideas of Adam Eve, and such. And if I'm not mistaken Adam and Eve did not start religion. It was Abraham who said God supposedly speaks to him, he is the founder of monotheism. So I think the teachings of Abraham is what they call the Old Testament. So I rest my case, religion was introduced by man. Who's to say Abraham didn't have split personality disorder, or some other mental condition?

[Lifrasthir]

Well I may be wrong but I don't think Buddhists believe in an all powerful god who created the universe and man. And generally Christians follow the bible, which introduces the ideas of Adam Eve, and such. And if I'm not mistaken Adam and Eve did not start religion. It was Abraham who said God supposedly speaks to him, he is the founder of monotheism. So I think the teachings of Abraham is what they call the Old Testament. So I rest my case, religion was introduced by man. Who's to say Abraham didn't have split personality disorder, or some other mental condition?

I don't believe Buddhists believe in an all powerful god either....Have to ask my friend about that...too....

What about the Torah? That's the Jewish Bible. Or the Quran(Spelling)? The Islamic Bible...It's not just Christians that follow the "Bible." We just call it the Bible instead of giving it a different name. Adam and Eve "introducing" religion to world could be debated. Because in Genesis, it says that God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. So, if that is so, then they would have to know that 1. They are the first human beings and 2. There is a sovereign being above them. Though since I have yet to read Genesis I cannot give a clear answer.

I can't say whether or not Abraham had a split personality or a different mental disorder...but I cannot believe that is so. I'm sure people thought he was crazy. But I highly doubt he really was. But how could we know?

[Demon Eyes]

^I don't understand how you can consider yourself a Christian and you have not even read the Bible.. That is blind faith at its best, it's alright though, most people do just have blind faith. I actually started reading the Bible last night so I can try to understand. But so far, tons of flaws. It says Adam and Eve and all their children all lived to be anywhere from 700 to like 950 years old... WTF? And it gives the measurements of Noah's arc. That thing was way too small to fit 2 of EVERY damn animal on this planet onto it. Plus enough food for everyone for 40 days and 40 nights. And I guess all these animals just voluntarily walked onto his boat and went into their cages. Another thing I remember it says god created two light sources one for day and one for night, well there is really just one light source the sun. The moon is bright because it reflects the sun light. I'm sure a God who created all this is smart enough to know that. Has anyone here actually read the old testament before?

[Demon Eyes]

Oh and as for your question about the Torah, I believe it is composed of a couple of books out of the old testament, but its not all of the old testament. And they do not follow any of the new testament. The bible is composed of the full old testament, and the full new testament(teachings of Christ).

[Lifrasthir]

^I don't understand how you can consider yourself a Christian and you have not even read the Bible.. That is blind faith at its best, it's alright though, most people do just have blind faith. I actually started reading the Bible last night so I can try to understand. But so far, tons of flaws. It says Adam and Eve and all their children all lived to be anywhere from 700 to like 950 years old... WTF? And it gives the measurements of Noah's arc. That thing was way too small to fit 2 of EVERY damn animal on this planet onto it. Plus enough food for everyone for 40 days and 40 nights. And I guess all these animals just voluntarily walked onto his boat and went into their cages. Another thing I remember it says god created two light sources one for day and one for night, well there is really just one light source the sun. The moon is bright because it reflects the sun light. I'm sure a God who created all this is smart enough to know that. Has anyone here actually read the old testament before?

You do not have to read the Bible to be a Christian. So you cannot judge me just because I have not read the entire Bible. I am currently reading 1 Corinthians with a friend. I also do not have blind faith. I believe because I see. You don't have to agree with me. Same as many other people. It's not blind faith. I have reasons for my beliefs yet you would slander me because of my reasons.

What's so weird about living 700-950 years old?

Have you ever tried to fit every singe animal into an arc the size it was in the Bible? How can you discredit something when there's no proof that it's wrong? I believe every animal walked onto the ship because God told them to. I also believe that God provided for the animals and people. I don't know how but he did.

What passage says that God created two light sources, one for night and one for day? Hm?

In 1 Corinthians 2, it talks about how we cannot understand the mind of God. It says that if God did something foolish, it still would be more wise than the wisest thing of man.

Oh and as for your question about the Torah, I believe it is composed of a couple of books out of the old testament, but its not all of the old testament. And they do not follow any of the new testament. The bible is composed of the full old testament, and the full new testament(teachings of Christ).

I have never laid eyes on a Torah so I would not know. But I do know that they do not have the New Testament in it because they don't believe Jesus was the son of God.

[Demon Eyes]

^read Genesis than come back. And also Noah built the ark by himself. I'd love to see a 600 year old man build a boat, one of this size. Hell I'd like to see a 600 year old man.

[Demon Eyes]

Genesis chapter 1 verse 16: "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

I'm on chapter 11 now and it states the whole earth was of one language, one speech. Why do we have so many now?

[Fruit Bat]

I do not mean to spark even MORE controversy, but Demon Eyes, what is the point of reading the Bible if you are just going to mock it, or better worded, criticize everything that was written?:blink:

[Demon Eyes]

Well in order for me to develop a real opinion, I need to hear both sides of the story.

[Fruit Bat]

That makes sense, but I think that you are looking at the Bible from the wrong perspective.

Yes, a 600 year old man today would be quite a sight, it could most likely happen back then, in the 1600 and 1700's we did not live to be 600, the average lifespan was much higher then it is today, so maybe it has been declining since the start of mankind?

Granted, I have no idea how the hell a 600 year old man could have built an ark by himself either, but that is one thing we will never know.

But at least you are reading the Bible to get a opinion, I can congratulate you on that.

[Lifrasthir]

Genesis chapter 1 verse 16: "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

I'm on chapter 11 now and it states the whole earth was of one language, one speech. Why do we have so many now?

Have you never heard the story of the Tower of Babel before?

Like I said before, since we cannot know the mind of God, it is hard to understand alot of stuff. When it says that "God made the lesser light to rule the night" it could have meant that the light from the sun reflects off the moon like how science describes it now. I've learned that you can't take everything in the Bible litterally.

^read Genesis than come back. And also Noah built the ark by himself. I'd love to see a 600 year old man build a boat, one of this size. Hell I'd like to see a 600 year old man.

I've read most of Genesis. (Just can't remember it all. It's been about a year and a half give me a break.) I actually believe Noah and his family built the ark together. Even though it doesn't say this in the Bible. (Could in a different version though.)

But at least you are reading the Bible to get a opinion, I can congratulate you on that.

Yes, I have to congradulate you on that as well.

[Demon Eyes]

That makes sense, but I think that you are looking at the Bible from the wrong perspective.

Yes, a 600 year old man today would be quite a sight, it could most likely happen back then, in the 1600 and 1700's we did not live to be 600, the average lifespan was much higher then it is today, so maybe it has been declining since the start of mankind?

Granted, I have no idea how the hell a 600 year old man could have built an ark by himself either, but that is one thing we will never know.

But at least you are reading the Bible to get a opinion, I can congratulate you on that.

Well my theory about religion is it was invented just so man can live his life without worries until the day he dies. There are a lot of people in this world, who would not be able to function on a day to day basis knowing it is all for nothing. I think if the Bible is true it should convince you from any perspective, as the truth always shows through. If I'm not convinced I'll chalk it up as another book read.;)

[Halfmetal]

I've missed out on a lot but I have a few points to make about whether or not God can be disproven.

No, I don't think he can. Scientific facts may say that there is no god but those are ever changing facts and are not reliable. Philosophical logic can be very damaging but that can change to. Hardly anyone gets the last word in philosophy, and because religion is faith based not all believers will just instantanoeusly switch to what logic or science tell us at present. That said, I don't think there can ever be any real proof for god either. All we can say is that certain hypothesis's are supported.

[Demon Eyes]

Religion IS philosophy. And yes it can't proven nor disproved. Which is why it's nearly an undebatable topic. I'll spring more theories after I've the creationist's theory.

[Halfmetal]

Religion is not philosophy. I have no idea where one came from. One could say it's a branch on philosophy but that it is philosophy.

Just because God can't be proven or disproven, doesn't mean it can't be debated with. You could say the same thing with science if that were true. Scientific studies never really prove anything. They only support a certain hypothesis or not.

[Demon Eyes]

How is religion not philosophy? And ya, a lot of science is just another belief system. The only difference is some science is fact. Gravity does exist, it will pull you toward the Earth if you're in it's range. The God theory can not at this moment be tested, therefore it's pointless, strictly from a science view.

[Halfmetal]

Philosophy is the discipline concerned with questions of how one should live, what sorts of things exist and what are their essential natures, what counts as genuine knowledge, all using the principles of logic and reasoning and what are the correct principles of reasoning.

A part of philosophy ties in with religion and similarly a part of Religion ties in with Philosophy but not the whole thing. Some philosophers say that philosophy is a danger to religion whilst others say that philosophy can used a tool to better understand religion whilst others go so far as to say that philosophy holds no relevance to religion.

[Demon Eyes]

Why doesn't the bible say anything about dinosaurs?

[Lifrasthir]

Why doesn't the bible say anything about dinosaurs?

How are we supposed to know why?

[Demon Eyes]

Well I mean, don't you think it's a little weird? Dinosaurs are like millions of years old. So how could they have existed on the earth before God created it?

[Halfmetal]

FUCKING ZOMG! That sig is awesome, DE.

Regarding the dinosuar thing, I don't think the Bible would have said anything about dinosuars considering there would be no point as Dinosuars don't really have any moral significance as far as I'm aware of. The bible centred mostly on Jesus' teachings so it would seem a bit odd.

[Demon Eyes]

The new testament is Jesus' teachings. The bible doesn't have to mention dinosaurs, but when God created the earth he put humans here. Dinosaurs lived a long time ago with Neanderthals. Then the ice age came and wiped them out. I just think an event this huge should have been documented in the Bible.

[Lifrasthir]

The new testament is Jesus' teachings. The bible doesn't have to mention dinosaurs, but when God created the earth he put humans here. Dinosaurs lived a long time ago with Neanderthals. Then the ice age came and wiped them out. I just think an event this huge should have been documented in the Bible.

Well first, is your definition of a "neanderthal" basically a "cave man?"

Second, if the answer is yes to my previous question then I wanna ask you to prove to me that dinosaurs lived with cave men. Actually I somewhat agree with your sig. (Minus the cursing, blood, and destruction.) I believe that dinosaurs were on Noah's ark.

So you don't believe it was a six mile wide meteor than hit the Earth and sent debris and all kinds of things into the air that made the dinosaurs go extinct?

[Demon Eyes]

I think if a meteor hit and wiped out all the dinosaurs, it would have surely wiped out all living creatures. As for the ice age, intelligence can build shelter. I can't prove dinosaurs lived with the Neanderthals. Maybe a scientist could though. As for dinosaurs on Noah's Ark... if my sig doesn't show the reality of what would happen; The boat was far too small to hold all the different species of dinosaurs + mammals.

[007vader]

The new testament is Jesus' teachings. The bible doesn't have to mention dinosaurs, but when God created the earth he put humans here. Dinosaurs lived a long time ago with Neanderthals. Then the ice age came and wiped them out. I just think an event this huge should have been documented in the Bible.
The subjects you're bringing up are questionable in themselves. They're both evolutionary ideas. Like Neanderthal and the ice age. You seem to take them as undeniable facts and they're not. And saying "I can't prove dinosaurs lived with the Neanderthals. Maybe a scientist could though." Is a little naive.

And I don't know about the dinosaurs on the ark thing. I always assumed that the dinosaurs weren't on the ark and that's why they went extinct . But I've never really asked anyone about it or looked it up so...

[Halfmetal]

Whether dinosaurs were on the ark would depend. Did it say that tow of ALL living creatures were on board? Anyway, they could've become extinct by other ways. Volcano's, giant earthquakes and meteores ,e.c.t.

By the way, DE, I doubt your sig is entierly accurate. Just how exactly would a fire start?

[Lifrasthir]

The subjects you're bringing up are questionable in themselves. They're both evolutionary ideas. Like Neanderthal and the ice age. You seem to take them as undeniable facts and they're not. And saying "I can't prove dinosaurs lived with the Neanderthals. Maybe a scientist could though." Is a little naive.

And I don't know about the dinosaurs on the ark thing. I always assumed that the dinosaurs weren't on the ark and that's why they went extinct . But I've never really asked anyone about it or looked it up so...

Well, God said to gather a male and female of every animal on the planet. So I would assume that dinosaurs would be part of that group.

[Halfmetal]

Unles they were already extinct. Besides, wouldn't what's on DE's sig happen anyway, without the dinosuars? (Excluding the fire obviously.)

[Lifrasthir]

Unles they were already extinct. Besides, wouldn't what's on DE's sig happen anyway, without the dinosuars? (Excluding the fire obviously.)

I dunno, why don't you ask Noah?....See? It's almost impossible to answer those questions because they weren't mentioned in the Bible and the people that were actually there have been dead for a long time.

[Devious]

I heard somewhere that according to Christianity dinosaurs never existed. The fossils were planted there by God to test our faith or something.

[Yurian]

The Bible - at least the Old Testament - isn't meant to be interpreted literally, at least in today's more modernized Christian Society. Fundamental Christians might still believe literaly in those accounts, but for the majority:

Eve wasn't created from Adam's rib. Rather, the Genesis story conveys the dominion man holds over Earth. In addition, it conveys humanity's importance in continuing God's Creation.

Noah didn't create an ark upon which all animals were held and protected from The Flood. Rather, the Flood story conveys the mercy of God in giving man - the sinner - another chance.

Moses didn't part a the Nile River to save the Chosen People. Rather, the Exodus account conveys the love and protection of God towards His people, as wel as the punishment of those who fight against Him.

[Lifrasthir]

I heard somewhere that according to Christianity dinosaurs never existed. The fossils were planted there by God to test our faith or something.

I don't believe that applies to every Christian...sure some sects of Christianity might teach that. But I'm pretty sure our church believes that dinosaurs actually existed.

The Bible - at least the Old Testament - isn't meant to be interpreted literally, at least in today's more modernized Christian Society. Fundamental Christians might still believe literaly in those accounts, but for the majority:

Eve wasn't created from Adam's rib. Rather, the Genesis story conveys the dominion man holds over Earth. In addition, it conveys humanity's importance in continuing God's Creation.

Noah didn't create an ark upon which all animals were held and protected from The Flood. Rather, the Flood story conveys the mercy of God in giving man - the sinner - another chance.

Moses didn't part a the Nile River to save the Chosen People. Rather, the Exodus account conveys the love and protection of God towards His people, as wel as the punishment of those who fight against Him.

Hn...I kinda have to disagree there. The Old Testament, at least the parts you mentioned, I believe to be real and true and that they actually happened.

Did you mean "man" as in "humans" or "man" as in "males?"

Noah actually did build the ark. God saved him and his family because they were faithful to God. I have a hard time of fitting the animals in with Noa's Ark if the story (<for lack of a better word) was supposed to symbolize God's grace on man....

Moses did part the Red Sea to allow the Israelites to cross and be free from Egypt. It does show that God protects His people, yes, but I also believe that it shows that God is faithful in His promises. And true, the Old Testament shows more of God's judgement while the New Testament is more about His love, but you have to understand that most of the New Testament was written after Jesus was crucified and resurected. The Old Testament was different.

[Yurian]

I was just giving some very loose examples of what the majority of my school - a Catholic school - believes in. I grew up interpreting (taking out the fact that I'm an Atheist) the Old Testament more figuratively than literally. Indeed, the late Pope John Paul II somewhat inferred this by saying "Faith teaches us how to get to heaven, not how the heavens were made."

To clarify: If you believe - for example - that Eve was created from one of Adam's rib bones, how do creation theories such as 'The Big Bang Theory' influence you?

If I might ask, which sect of Christianity are you part of?

[Demon Eyes]

Yurian, you speak as if they are folk tales. If your school teaches you to interpret them figuratively, it takes out the whole 'magnificent' aspect of a God. If nothing miraculous happened, then God remains just an idea. I think it's the miracle aspect that really convinces the people who do believe.

[Rophe]

No, what I find is that with more recent discoveries such as red shift and fossils, that basically prove evolution and the big bang, the fundamental christians (who take the bible as word rather than symbolism) just use the excuse 'Oh God did that to test our faith', an extremely weak argument. If we have any fundamental Christians here who believe the whole creation theory, explain to me red shift and fossils without that lame ass excuse.
I can understand the more modern Christians views, Big Bang was started by God, Ok, I can understamd that. It's funamental Christianity that bugs me.

[Halfmetal]

You have to consider what you ask of the religious. To subordinate their holy text and beliefs to an ever-changing science? Many would consider that unreasonable.

[BlueOni]

12 pages and the thread hasn't dissolved into a flamewar yet... good community. On-topic, I'm not religious, haven't thought about it much but I don't have any beef against religious people of any religion. I think religion should be conducive to personal well-being, cultural development and societal stability. I think people should have a personal relationship with their chosen deity rather than distant obeisance.

[Lifrasthir]

I was just giving some very loose examples of what the majority of my school - a Catholic school - believes in. I grew up interpreting (taking out the fact that I'm an Atheist) the Old Testament more figuratively than literally. Indeed, the late Pope John Paul II somewhat inferred this by saying "Faith teaches us how to get to heaven, not how the heavens were made."

To clarify: If you believe - for example - that Eve was created from one of Adam's rib bones, how do creation theories such as 'The Big Bang Theory' influence you?

If I might ask, which sect of Christianity are you part of?

Ah...well I do know that you can't take everything litterally but I think it's pretty obvious when the writer of the book is using symbolism or something similar.

I am Baptist I suppose you could say. But I honestly don't think that matters that much....

Yurian, you speak as if they are folk tales. If your school teaches you to interpret them figuratively, it takes out the whole 'magnificent' aspect of a God. If nothing miraculous happened, then God remains just an idea. I think it's the miracle aspect that really convinces the people who do believe.

It's not the miracles, Demon Eyes, it's a lot of things. Well, it could be the miracles but it's also the thought of actually being able to go somewhere after one dies instead of just dying..I like the thought of being clean of every wrong thing that I've done.

No, what I find is that with more recent discoveries such as red shift and fossils, that basically prove evolution and the big bang, the fundamental christians (who take the bible as word rather than symbolism) just use the excuse 'Oh God did that to test our faith', an extremely weak argument. If we have any fundamental Christians here who believe the whole creation theory, explain to me red shift and fossils without that lame ass excuse.
I can understand the more modern Christians views, Big Bang was started by God, Ok, I can understamd that. It's funamental Christianity that bugs me.

Well, those things might be evidence but it's not going to fully prove anything because it's still theories that people make. I can't argue with the fossils that have been found but to me it doesn't prove that evolution occured.

[Demon Eyes]

It's not the miracles, Demon Eyes, it's a lot of things. Well, it could be the miracles but it's also the thought of actually being able to go somewhere after one dies instead of just dying..I like the thought of being clean of every wrong thing that I've done.


Yes but who tells you they are wrong? They are wrong because that's what religion teaches? Or are you performing wrong acts towards mankind? It's just morality, I think people should make their own morals, not follow a preset layout. We are born with free thought, so you are free to make your own decisions. I could not imagine living life a certain way in fear of not being rewarding with life after death.

[Yurian]

Yurian, you speak as if they are folk tales. If your school teaches you to interpret them figuratively, it takes out the whole 'magnificent' aspect of a God. If nothing miraculous happened, then God remains just an idea. I think it's the miracle aspect that really convinces the people who do believe.

Ahem: "more figuratively than literally". :P lol If it wasn't interpreted somewhat literally, the OT would just be another morality book. Indeed, if it was interpreted figuratively, Abraham's trial - a core to the OT - would be thrown out. It's possible if miracles are possible that Abraham heard the voice of God (this would be interpreting the OT literally).

One aspect that most Christians expect from the Bible is that they want (know) it to trascend changing societies and perceptions. Basically, even though new technology, discoveries, etc. may disprove certain scientifically impossible aspects of the Bible - Noah built an ark, Eve was created from Adam, Moses parted the Nile River - the basic messages of the Bible remain the same. The basic meaning of each story still inspires, protects, and guides Christians.

I find the New Testament to be much more of a personal 'expedition' than the OT. For example, it could be compared to J.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings Trilogy, where in contrast the OT would be like Tolkien's Simarillion. Adding to that, the NT - unlike the history-bookiness of the OT - is actually a contextual and concrete core that people believe in. It's grounded and easy to relate to. I can't directly disprove the possibility of Jesus' resurrection like I can disprove Eve's creation from Adam's rib; the resurrection was a miracle - it's out of science (and in my case: reality) - and that's what makes it so unique.

[Halfmetal]

Yes but who tells you they are wrong? They are wrong because that's what religion teaches? Or are you performing wrong acts towards mankind? It's just morality, I think people should make their own morals, not follow a preset layout. We are born with free thought, so you are free to make your own decisions. I could not imagine living life a certain way in fear of not being rewarding with life after death.

God tells us. That's pretty damn obvious, DE.:P

You've got the wrong image of us, DE. We don't live like that. God has aksed us to act morally, so acknowledging his divine wisdom, we do so. Yes there are some who only act out of fear or are only seeking reward but they aren't acting entierly morally, although it can still be argued that atleast they did the good deed. Besides, we're still free to disobey and stop believeing in him or that he'll punish us.

[Demon Eyes]

God tells us. That's pretty damn obvious, DE.:P

You've got the wrong image of us, DE. We don't live like that. God has aksed us to act morally, so acknowledging his divine wisdom, we do so. Yes there are some who only act out of fear or are only seeking reward but they aren't acting entierly morally, although it can still be argued that atleast they did the good deed. Besides, we're still free to disobey and stop believeing in him or that he'll punish us.

So you actually heard the voice of God telling you what to do? You were most likely taught by your parents. And see you won't disobey him because you think he will punish you. It's almost like a brainwash of the conscience... Con Science...lol

[Shiva]

To be honest I don't care about religion despite the fact that I'm Christian, and Its been over 2 years since I've been to church.

So I guess that also falls under not being religious.

[Halfmetal]

So you actually heard the voice of God telling you what to do? You were most likely taught by your parents. And see you won't disobey him because you think he will punish you. It's almost like a brainwash of the conscience... Con Science...lol

No, but I've read it. The Quran, Demon Eyes. Tell me you've heard of it.

Perhaps there is a part of my subconsious or whatever that's telling me not to disobey becuase I fear punishment. I can't really tell. My subconcious seems to have a mind of it's own, if that makes sense. But I believe I'm trying not disobey becuase i recognize good from bad becuase of God and understand that bad is, well.....bad.

[Lifrasthir]

Yes but who tells you they are wrong? They are wrong because that's what religion teaches? Or are you performing wrong acts towards mankind? It's just morality, I think people should make their own morals, not follow a preset layout. We are born with free thought, so you are free to make your own decisions. I could not imagine living life a certain way in fear of not being rewarding with life after death.

Society does, actually. Well most things society says is wrong. It's wrong to lie, it's wrong to cheat, it's wrong to murder...I mean, that's what we're taught in schools right? But that doesn't mean people follow the "rules." Having life after death is a main thing why people gravitate towards becoming Christians. (I'm not sure if Islam teaches about life after death so you can correct me there Halfmetal.) But the thing is Demon Eyes, that I do not wish to be rewarded after life. We are given the gift of eternal life because we believe that Jesus Christ came down in the form of a man to die for our sins so that we wouldn't have to pay the penalty ourselves- which is eternal death.

One aspect that most Christians expect from the Bible is that they want (know) it to trascend changing societies and perceptions. Basically, even though new technology, discoveries, etc. may disprove certain scientifically impossible aspects of the Bible - Noah built an ark, Eve was created from Adam, Moses parted the Nile River - the basic messages of the Bible remain the same. The basic meaning of each story still inspires, protects, and guides Christians.

Actually the Bible doesn't necessarily "protect" a Christian. I mean it does because it warns us of our sins and what is to come but if you were to hold it up in front of a demon-possesed person who was about to kill you, just having the Bible alone would do nothing to protect you. It's really your faith. If you have no faith in God or the Bible, then how on earth would the Bible protect you?

You've got the wrong image of us, DE. We don't live like that. God has aksed us to act morally, so acknowledging his divine wisdom, we do so. Yes there are some who only act out of fear or are only seeking reward but they aren't acting entierly morally, although it can still be argued that atleast they did the good deed. Besides, we're still free to disobey and stop believeing in him or that he'll punish us.

Right. :nod:

So you actually heard the voice of God telling you what to do? You were most likely taught by your parents. And see you won't disobey him because you think he will punish you. It's almost like a brainwash of the conscience... Con Science...lol

Actually yes I have. And so has many other people. I have the choice to disobey my parents. They can teach me to be a "good little girl," but really it's my life. I can choose whether or not I'm going to listen to them. I know I will be punished for every wrong thing I do. Maybe not immediately but eventually judgement will come. But the cool thing is that someone actually came and took my place for me. It's like me taking the death penalty for you because you murdered someone and were found guilty. How would you feel if something like that happened?

I wanna ask you all something...If Jesus really did exist and he were to return and take all of his believers up to Heaven in the time it takes to blink your eyes...would you believe then? Basically I'm asking what your reaction would be...We have no idea what it would really be like but just right now...how would you think you'd react?

[Sundance Kid]

I am not religious, not anymore. I used to be Catholic but left the church when I was 15. I don't want to follow just one major group of followers or beliefs when I would rather find out the truth for myself then just believe what other tell me or teach me...

@miss Lifrasthir: I'd be amazed, and happy to know that there is something/someone waiting for us after life on Mother Earth

[Yurian]

If Jesus did come down, I'd definitely believe. I think that would be a given for any rational person: who would want to burn in hell for eternity?

The thing is, however, Jesus (I'm stating my own opinionated fact) will not be coming down. I don't want to base my existence on something that I don't believe exists; rather, I want to live where everything I do I am the ultimate source of.

[Lifrasthir]

If Jesus did come down, I'd definitely believe. I think that would be a given for any rational person: who would want to burn in hell for eternity?

The thing is, however, Jesus (I'm stating my own opinionated fact) will not be coming down. I don't want to base my existence on something that I don't believe exists; rather, I want to live where everything I do I am the ultimate source of.

Well, the sad truth is that if Jesus did come down that lots of people wouldn't believe.

I understand. :)

[Rophe]

To be honest, if Jesus came down and took only his believers to heaven I would probably think he was a...well, I don't wish to offend people. In my opinion, I am safe either way because, though I do not believe in an afterlife I still live life to basic definitions of right and wrong and try to live as "right" as possible. If God or Allah or whoever it could be was real I doubt they would through someone out of heaven for being a stubborn non-believer?

Also, I'd like to point out that the definitions of "right" and "wrong" are very flexible. It isn't always wrong to lie, it depends on what you think of as the definition of 'murder' as to whether that is always wrong or not.

[Lifrasthir]

To be honest, if Jesus came down and took only his believers to heaven I would probably think he was a...well, I don't wish to offend people. In my opinion, I am safe either way because, though I do not believe in an afterlife I still live life to basic definitions of right and wrong and try to live as "right" as possible. If God or Allah or whoever it could be was real I doubt they would through someone out of heaven for being a stubborn non-believer?

Hm....is that because he will only rapture his church?...

If God or Allah or whoever it could be was real I doubt they would through someone out of heaven for being a stubborn non-believer?

What do you mean by that?

Also, I'd like to point out that the definitions of "right" and "wrong" are very flexible. It isn't always wrong to lie, it depends on what you think of as the definition of 'murder' as to whether that is always wrong or not.

Hn...that is true.

[Rophe]

I mean that some religious people today and almost all in ye olde days of Jesus and such believed only the religious would go to heaven and no other religions/non-religions would be given access at the end. That means that if I lived life better than a christian I would still not be given access at the end of life. Though, I must make it clear that I know that this is not all or even probably most these days of religious people's opinions.

[Halfmetal]

I'd just like to say that, contrary to popular belief, although there has been major controversy surrounding the bible and evolution, there is not actually that same amount of controversy in other religions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_creationism

[Rophe]

Yeah, this is alright but in my eyes it is still just trying to subtley alter what people have been saying for centuries. Are you saying that when Muhammad dictated the Qu'ran people believed that the universe was so very old, and that the Earth was so old and that the 'days' were in fact huge periods of time.

Oh and I'm not saying this is true but it is funny and kinda relevant so thanks to Matt for showing this to me:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/245/445416805_4b7e57c548.jpg

[Halfmetal]

Are you saying that when Muhammad dictated the Qu'ran people believed that the universe was so very old, and that the Earth was so old and that the 'days' were in fact huge periods of time.

Well I'm not really sure. You'd have to ask a scholar on that.


Oh and I'm not saying this is true but it is funny and kinda relevant so thanks to Matt for showing this to me:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/245/445416805_4b7e57c548.jpg

Can't read the words. Too small. Make it bigger.

[Rophe]

http://www.wellingtongrey.net/miscellanea/archive/2007-01-15%20--%20science%20vs%20faith.html

[Halfmetal]

Oh I think that's pretty harsh, if not entirely wrong:

1) What makes them think that we just ignore contradicting evidence? We don't. We respond to them accordingly with reason also. In many cases in the Philosophy of Religion that very same process on the left hand side has been used such as in our arguments (e.g. The Ontological Argument), responses in the arguments against us (e.g.Problem of Evil) and defining the attributes of God (e.g. The Omnipotence Paradox)

2) Well what exactly do they expect? To change our beliefs just like that? We consider the word of God to be infallable, believe it or not (Well most of us do). We can't just change our beliefs when an ever-changing piece of logic or science tells us to. Our foundations don't rest on change.

3) In some extreme cases, Religion has been changed that way. Just look at all the different branches of Christianity. There's feckin' tons.

To me that just seems like a cheap shot at religion.

[Ringlets]

if Jesus came down and took only his believers to heaven
If that happened, wouldnt society reform itself around the loss of religion? I mean if God was real, he would accept all beliefs towards him, thus taking all religions with deities up to heaven, leaving the non religious and philosophical atheists to rebuild the world. But then that would mean that God supports Atheism as he didnt send everyone left to hell, ergo God loves people who dont believe in him.

[Rekhyt]

If that happened, wouldnt society reform itself around the loss of religion? I mean if God was real, he would accept all beliefs towards him, thus taking all religions with deities up to heaven, leaving the non religious and philosophical atheists to rebuild the world. But then that would mean that God supports Atheism as he didnt send everyone left to hell, ergo God loves people who dont believe in him.

I think that after judgement day everyone who is left on Earth either goes to hell or has to suffer through the torments of the apocalypse, according to the bible.

[Ringlets]

I think that after judgement day everyone who is left on Earth either goes to hell or has to suffer through the torments of the apocalypse, according to the bible.

But if God existed as Christians believe him to, as in all loving, but only allowed his believers to heaven, surely that would leave the non believers at the anti-business end of the love triangle?

[Lifrasthir]

If that happened, wouldnt society reform itself around the loss of religion? I mean if God was real, he would accept all beliefs towards him, thus taking all religions with deities up to heaven, leaving the non religious and philosophical atheists to rebuild the world. But then that would mean that God supports Atheism as he didnt send everyone left to hell, ergo God loves people who dont believe in him.

But Allah isn't the same as God. Halfmetal and I worship and believe in two different Gods.

Once God's Church is raptured, there will rise an antichrist who will make a peace treaty with Israel, beginning the 7 Year Tribulation. Religion will not "die," as you put it. I think somewhere in the Bible it states that the antichrist will make his own religion. But there will still be Jews and Christians and Muslims...etc.

You're right Ringlets, God does love the people who don't believe in him.

[Ringlets]

But Allah isn't the same as God. Halfmetal and I worship and believe in two different Gods.



I didnt mean God as in the Christian diety, unimaginatively named God, i meant any deity for which if every religion was founded from the same basis then it would be the same God, just in different forms.

[Lifrasthir]

I didnt mean God as in the Christian diety, unimaginatively named God, i meant any deity for which if every religion was founded from the same basis then it would be the same God, just in different forms.

Oh, read your post wrong...

[Halfmetal]

But Allah isn't the same as God. Halfmetal and I worship and believe in two different Gods.


But we do Lifrasthir! We do worship the same God. We just have different beliefs about him, that's all. And there aren't that many differences.

[Lifrasthir]

But we do Lifrasthir! We do worship the same God. We just have different beliefs about him, that's all. And there aren't that many differences.

Hn....I suppose so...I don't understand enough of Islam belief to say anything. You might though. I've been trying to get pieces of information out of a couple of muslim friends at school though...

[Halfmetal]

If you've got any questions, then fire away.

[Halfmetal]

Wow, no questions huh?

[Ringlets]

Oh noes! Double post! BAN BAN BAN! I do have a question, which was probably answered previously in the thread, what religion are you and Lifrasthir? One said you worshipped different gods, and the other said you didnt 0_o

[Halfmetal]

I'm a Muslim. Lifrasthir, I think is a Christian.

[Lifrasthir]

Wow, no questions huh?

Well, I have questions...I just wanna think about what I ask before I ask....I only have three wishes!!!! O_o

Hn...I've asked a couple of Muslim friends if Islam teaches about Armageddon or something like the "end of the world." One didn't answer and the other one, I believe, said that was true...If it is true, could you elaborate on it?

Oh noes! Double post! BAN BAN BAN! I do have a question, which was probably answered previously in the thread, what religion are you and Lifrasthir? One said you worshipped different gods, and the other said you didnt 0_o

I am Christian. If you must know what sect, Baptist. I don't know what I was thinking when I said "we worship different Gods." 'Cause in all honestly I don't really know...

[Halfmetal]

We believe in Judgement day, which i think is what you're refferring to.

When people least expect it, Angle Raphael will be given permission by Allah, to sound a horn sending out a "Blast of Truth". And then everyone that's alive, dies....

Then everyone is ressurected and gathered for judgement, including the jin (I think) even the prophets and the devil.

I'm not sure when during this day, but apparently Allah, brings forth Death in the form of a black and white ram and then it will be slaughtered in front of everyone to show that now everyone lives forever.

During judgment, a man's or a woman's own book of deeds will be opened, and they will be apprised of every action they did and every word they spoke. Actions taken during childhood are not judged. The account of deeds is so detailed that the man or woman will wonder at how comprehensive the account is, that even minor and trivial deeds are included. If one denies a deed he or she committed, or refuses to acknowledge it, his or her own body parts will testify against him or her. (freaky stuff)

Throughout judgment, however, the underlying principle is that of a complete and perfect justice administered by Allah. The accounts of judgment are also replete with the emphasis that Allah is merciful and forgiving, and that mercy and forgiveness will be granted on that day insofar as it is merited.

After judgement all men and women are made to cross over a deep abyss, where the flames of Hell leap up, below a thorny bridge so thin that it cannot be seen. It is said in Hadith that crossing the bridge is such a difficult task, because the bridge is as thick as one seventh strand of hair, and as sharp as the edge of a sword. Those destined for Heaven are able to cross quickly and safely, seeing it as a thick stone bridge, whereas others fall off this hair-thin bridge into hell.

Don't worry too much about them. Apparently Allah will repeatedly order His angels to fetch out of hell any who is sincerely sorry.

Once the crossing is over, the good will be led by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to a vast basin or lake-fount, where their thirst will be sated with a white-colored drink that tastes like sweetened milk. Those that drink it, never feel thirsty again. In one of the Hadith, apparently it says that this is the river of heaven. Which means they must be in heaven by now.

btw: Baptists believe in the same God that Muslims do. I think all sects of Christiantity do tbh.

[Lifrasthir]

We believe in Judgement day, which i think is what you're refferring to.

When people least expect it, Angle Raphael will be given permission by Allah, to sound a horn sending out a "Blast of Truth". And then everyone that's alive, dies....

Then everyone is ressurected and gathered for judgement, including the jin (I think) even the prophets and the devil.

I'm not sure when during this day, but apparently Allah, brings forth Death in the form of a black and white ram and then it will be slaughtered in front of everyone to show that now everyone lives forever.

During judgment, a man's or a woman's own book of deeds will be opened, and they will be apprised of every action they did and every word they spoke. Actions taken during childhood are not judged. The account of deeds is so detailed that the man or woman will wonder at how comprehensive the account is, that even minor and trivial deeds are included. If one denies a deed he or she committed, or refuses to acknowledge it, his or her own body parts will testify against him or her. (freaky stuff)

Throughout judgment, however, the underlying principle is that of a complete and perfect justice administered by Allah. The accounts of judgment are also replete with the emphasis that Allah is merciful and forgiving, and that mercy and forgiveness will be granted on that day insofar as it is merited.

After judgement all men and women are made to cross over a deep abyss, where the flames of Hell leap up, below a thorny bridge so thin that it cannot be seen. It is said in Hadith that crossing the bridge is such a difficult task, because the bridge is as thick as one seventh strand of hair, and as sharp as the edge of a sword. Those destined for Heaven are able to cross quickly and safely, seeing it as a thick stone bridge, whereas others fall off this hair-thin bridge into hell.

Don't worry too much about them. Apparently Allah will repeatedly order His angels to fetch out of hell any who is sincerely sorry.

Once the crossing is over, the good will be led by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to a vast basin or lake-fount, where their thirst will be sated with a white-colored drink that tastes like sweetened milk. Those that drink it, never feel thirsty again. In one of the Hadith, apparently it says that this is the river of heaven. Which means they must be in heaven by now.

btw: Baptists believe in the same God that Muslims do. I think all sects of Christiantity do tbh.

Wow, that's a lot more than what my friend told me..

So, is Judgement Day like an immediate thing? Like, the day starts off normal and then the next second it's Judgement Day? Or are there certain prophecies or something similar that are fulfilled before Judgement Day? If I'm making any sense...

I suppose so.

[Halfmetal]

Well, Judgement day starts immediately but there are supposed to be major and minor signs. Here's a good list:

http://etori.tripod.com/dajjalsystem/judgement.html

For some reason they put minor signs before the major ones. Funny. I would have though the major ones were more important

[Lifrasthir]

Well, Judgement day starts immediately but there are supposed to be major and minor signs. Here's a good list:

http://etori.tripod.com/dajjalsystem/judgement.html

For some reason they put minor signs before the major ones. Funny. I would have though the major ones were more important

Some of these major signs...I don't understand.

- The Mahdi
- Ya?juj and Ma?juj (Gog and Magog)
- The destruction of the Ka?bah and the recovery of its treasure

I don't know what those or who those are.

[Halfmetal]

The Madhi is a person prophecised to be the redeemer of Islam. He will defend the Muslims from destrcution and will change the world into a perfect and just Islamic society alongside Jesus before the Day of the Resurrection. There is a lot of disptue about him or her, though. Here's a wiki article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

The Kaaba is a large Cuboidal building inside a mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. It's supposed to be THE holiest place in islam. It's what we are all suppsoed to point to when we pray. It's where Muslims go to for Hajj (pilgramage)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Kaaba1.jpg

However, I'm not sure about what this treasure is inside it. I'll have to look that one up.


Gog and Magog are beings or humans who have "evil and destructive nature". That's about as much as i know about them, I'm afraid.

[Lifrasthir]

Oh, okay.

Thanks for answering my questions. ^^ (Which are pretty stupid...>_<)

[Halfmetal]

Oh, their not stupid, don't worry. I've been asked these sorts of questions all the time from my friends at school. Their teacher in in year 9 probably did a poor job of teaching them about Islam.

[Lifrasthir]

Our world history book doesn't really teach about Islam. But what irks me kinda is that sometimes the book (and our teacher when he's giving us lectures) makes Christians and Catholics sound like we're evil people...

[Rekhyt]

Our world history book doesn't really teach about Islam. But what irks me kinda is that sometimes the book (and our teacher when he's giving us lectures) makes Christians and Catholics sound like we're evil people...

If he's a history teacher that makes a lot of sense. Historically, religion has been the cause for some of the worst atrocities that ever happened (Crusades, massacres and ethnic cleansing etc).

[Halfmetal]

I don't think that's true. I only think that religion has been the excuse. Becuase, if you think about it, the religion they actually believe in has never advised them to commit such attrocities. It's really the people using religion. Not the other way around. Ofcourse, people have been the victims as well.

[Misschoco]

well personally im not religious,i was told once i should be to live a good live and to develop a good character 'and not go down the wrong path'..i ended up scourning them for half an hour telling them the basis of my character isnt to do with what i believe in, religion isnt going to determine if im good or bad...its like saying-believe in the bible or i'll go to hell...which i'v also been told :)

[Halfmetal]

It's a lot more complicated than that. In Philosophy, many have argued that there is no basis for morality without a moral lawmaker which has to be God. Otherwise we believe in relative morality which is larglely unnaccepeted. It's also hard to know the difference from right to wrong without being told by some being with supposidly divine wisdom. You can only know from what your parents or society has taught you, and that isn't actually knowledge, because either can be wrong.

This is just one argument on one side, though. It's a hell of alot more complicated than this.

[Lifrasthir]

If he's a history teacher that makes a lot of sense. Historically, religion has been the cause for some of the worst atrocities that ever happened (Crusades, massacres and ethnic cleansing etc).

I understand that....<_<

I don't think that's true. I only think that religion has been the excuse. Becuase, if you think about it, the religion they actually believe in has never advised them to commit such attrocities. It's really the people using religion. Not the other way around. Ofcourse, people have been the victims as well.

Religion could be used as an excuse but people were fighting to prove that their "god was better than the other god." Or they could have been fighting to defend their religious beliefs...

[Halfmetal]

That's true but that's still unjustifiable by their own standards. Did their God actually tell them to do that? Was it writen in their book? If it was, should the whole concept of religion suffer? Should it not just be theirs? Why stereotype?

Keith Ward suggests that any organised human activity can be corrupted, and that the corruptions of religion, although highly regrettable, are less harmful that the corruptions of secular ideologies (the excesses of the Nazis, Leninists and Maoists all claimed the support of science). In addition the great religions have within themselves a powerful critique of corruption.

I don't see anything wrong with defending religious beliefs, though. In that case they have no other option.

[Thefutureisnow]

Myself, im a sceptic catholic going to a nun run school, i never go to church and never pray for any reason. I do take advantage of christmas though

[007vader]

If he's a history teacher that makes a lot of sense. Historically, religion has been the cause for some of the worst atrocities that ever happened (Crusades, massacres and ethnic cleansing etc).
Anyone who says that is looking for something bad to pin on religion. The fact of the matter is is that people are evil and will do bad things and for those examples religion was a good excuse. But there are millions of evil things that have been done without religion. And saying bad things come of religion is not true. Think of all the good things that have come from religion too.

[Rekhyt]

Anyone who says that is looking for something bad to pin on religion. The fact of the matter is is that people are evil and will do bad things and for those examples religion was a good excuse. But there are millions of evil things that have been done without religion. And saying bad things come of religion is not true. Think of all the good things that have come from religion too.

I know that usually political leaders or monarchs have ulterior motives for there atrocities if they hadn't used Religion to get the people on their side these atrocities would not have happened.

For example, the crusades were used as a way for the Pope to unify Christendom and solidify his power in Europe. If he hadn't used religion and claimed it was God's will that the Holy Land should be liberated no one would have sailed to Jerusalem. By mentioning God he managed to send hundreds of thousands of peasants, knights and children to put their lives on the line.

[007vader]

I know that usually political leaders or monarchs have ulterior motives for there atrocities if they hadn't used Religion to get the people on their side these atrocities would not have happened.

For example, the crusades were used as a way for the Pope to unify Christendom and solidify his power in Europe. If he hadn't used religion and claimed it was God's will that the Holy Land should be liberated no one would have sailed to Jerusalem. By mentioning God he managed to send hundreds of thousands of peasants, knights and children to put their lives on the line.
True but there are other things people could have used too. Such as "Do it for queen and country" or something like that. But just blaming a lot of bad things on religion isn't entirely fair. Since there have been just as many if not more evil things done against Christianity. I.E. the holocaust, and countless of Christian persecutions that have happened throughout history and still happen today. So when you add it all up there have been more Christians suffering for their beliefs than there have been others suffering because of Christians beliefs.

[Dark Remnant]

I've never been a religious person, maybe it's because I don't know enough facts or because I don't care enough to make a decision but I'm happy as an atheist so I'm not likely to be converted any time soon.

[Halfmetal]

I know that usually political leaders or monarchs have ulterior motives for there atrocities if they hadn't used Religion to get the people on their side these atrocities would not have happened.

For example, the crusades were used as a way for the Pope to unify Christendom and solidify his power in Europe. If he hadn't used religion and claimed it was God's will that the Holy Land should be liberated no one would have sailed to Jerusalem. By mentioning God he managed to send hundreds of thousands of peasants, knights and children to put their lives on the line.

You could use a pen to write works of art, letters of love or words of wisdom. You could use the same pen to stab someone in the neck and kill them. Either way, the creidt goes to the one using the pen.

Just imagine that God actually, exists. Now in order for us to have free will we have to have the ability to these things, even in the name of God. If we can't, then no free will.

You're saying that life would be better without religion. But your assuming that God doesn't exist. Your stance, immidieatly, is one of an athiest. But what if he did exist? Would it be better then?

It's all well and good saying that it's just your opinion that God doesn't exist and there's nothing wrong with that opinion so there's nothing wrong with following that to believe that the world would be better without religion. You would be right. There isn't anything wrong with that. But one has to remember that in that case, it's just opinion. It's subjective. To go from that to claiming it's fact and everyone should believe it and we should all be hostile towards religion, is making an unjustified leap. It's fallacious

[Rekhyt]

True but there are other things people could have used too. Such as "Do it for queen and country" or something like that. But just blaming a lot of bad things on religion isn't entirely fair. Since there have been just as many if not more evil things done against Christianity. I.E. the holocaust, and countless of Christian persecutions that have happened throughout history and still happen today. So when you add it all up there have been more Christians suffering for their beliefs than there have been others suffering because of Christians beliefs.

The holocaust was against the Jews. Not Christians.

Christians have had suprisingly few, if any mass persecutions.

[Halfmetal]

The holocaust was against the Jews. Not Christians.

Christians have had suprisingly few, if any mass persecutions.

Unless you count Rome and their lions. Nah, back in ye olden days they were all killing each other. Protestant versus Catholic and stuff. Sort of like what Sunnis and Shi'ite Muslims are doing in Iraq, now.

[Dark Remnant]

Nah, back in ye olden days they were all killing each other. Protestant versus Catholic and stuff. Sort of like what Sunnis and Shi'ite Muslims are doing in Iraq, now.

Religion is the root of all evil, as they say.

[Lifrasthir]

Religion is the root of all evil, as they say.

Who says that??

[Patsie]

Not religious. One event pretty much changed my opnion about religion.

[Halfmetal]

Who says that??

Richard Dawkins, he thinks. It's not true though. Even Richard Dawkins doesn't think that. Dawkins has said that the title "The Root of All Evil?" was not his preferred choice, but that Channel 4 had insisted on it to create controversy. The sole concession from the producers on the title was the addition of the question mark. Dawkins has stated that the notion of anything being the root of all evil is ridiculous.

@ Dark Remnant - Haven't you been reading my posts? PAY ATTENTION!

[Aerith]

I'm religious~

[Nagadick]

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/8029/moonek7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Pain Clone]

i can honistly say that i am in no way or will ever be a religus person, hell i dont even care for christmas ant more.

[Halfmetal]

I don't celebrate christams either, but I hardly think christmas is much of a christian holiday tbh.

[Misschoco]

I don't celebrate christams either, but I hardly think christmas is much of a christian holiday tbh.
in true terms-its only become so materialistic that not even Christians probably give a fuck
about its meaning :rolleyes:

[Neal]

I certainly don't.

[Misschoco]

I certainly don't.
so i was making a true predicament :rolleyes:

[Pain Clone]

in true terms-its only become so materialistic that not even Christians probably give a fuck
about its meaning :rolleyes:

well said, christmas can be seen as a selfish act.

[Neal]

Wtf are you on about? How is giving and receiving presents selfish? It's only selfish if you don't get anyone else anything.

[Pain Clone]

Wtf are you on about? How is giving and receiving presents selfish? It's only selfish if you don't get anyone else anything.

i said can be

[Purple]

It really depends. There are times when I'm really religious, there are times I'm not so. It depends on where I am in my life

[Nagadick]

Passive-Religous, that deifnetly a new one for the books :aldo:

[Brave27heart]

Im not religious.

I used to be. Went to church every Sunday, i was in the church choir (head choir boy no less) and attended St. Peters Collegiate School, a strict C of E school.

But as i got older and became more aware of things going on in the world i just decided that i didnt believe in the things i'd been taught as a child. I mean, if there is a God, why all the killing that goes on in his/her/their name? Either God doesn't exist or God is just doing a bad job. Humanity is going to hell and it's our own doing, so why not stop us? If you give a bunch of monkeys samurai swords one of them is going to get something chopped off, so you just dont do it. So why give us the means to destroy ourselves?

If i die and end up at the pearly gates and an angel greets me and says "Im sorry, you've lived a good life but because you dont believe i cant let you in", i'll accept that.

If anything im a little envious of people who have that faith, but i just cant believe anymore.