Evolution

[Hitoshura]

Discuss anything related to this so-called "Big Bang" thing in here.

Anyway, I don't believe it.

If you believe that
+ Our Soul
+ Eyes to see
+ Hears to hear
+ Legs to walk
+ Arms to grab stuff
+ Nose to smell
is all an accident, then...... you fail at life.

Sorry :/

[Lifrasthir]

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o269/Untouchable_Memories/bigbangtheory.gif

[Lucrecia]

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o269/Untouchable_Memories/bigbangtheory.gif

:lol: That is one good explanation. :rolleyes:

[Inferno187]

^ ROTFLMAO
Hahah big bang suxxors.

@Ragnarok
But I thought Big Bang was just a theory for the existence of Earth and the universe and all. Not humans..

[Lifrasthir]

Yes the Big Bang theory is a scientific view on how the world came to be. Then evolution is the "scientific" way on how humans came to be. But it's bogus. Even Darwin himself said it was.

[Hitoshura]

xD

BUT NO!!! The scientist had to rape the theory in the butt and twist everything. Darwin didn't even say that evolution was true, he only said that it was possible that human had a common ancestor. We've been mislead all this time. D:

[Lifrasthir]

Darwin "invented" evolution, then before he died he said it wasn't true.

If one of you can prove with real science that evolution is true please tell me. That doesn't mean a % likelyhood.

[Hitoshura]

I got a question, if evolution was true, howcome its not happening anymore? O.O

If the world is a bazillion years old, how come "JudgeMeant Day" or "TEH Sun exploding" hasn't happened yet? Its taking that long for it to happen?

Science make me LAWLZ

[Pixel]

Well first off I do not believe in the Big Bang theory and Evolution is not happining anymore because there is no need to adapt at the moment. My thoughts on that though are that as the planet gets hotter because of global warming, eventually all the species on this planet will adapt or die.......

And the sun has not exploded yet because it has not run out of "fuel", when it does, it will collapse on itself and cause a supernova.....

[Rekhyt]

If one of you can prove with real science that evolution is true please tell me. That doesn't mean a % likelyhood.

*Shazam*
Short proof which also has a link to a site where they go through the objections and disproves them one by one.
http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/essays/courtenay1.htm

Really long in depth proof.
http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/essays/creationism.htm

And Ragnarock these processes take millions of years to happen and they are happening at the moment, it's just that there happening so slowly we can't tell.

(And Inferno is right. Big Bang theory has nothing to do with evolution.)

[Lifrasthir]

I think because of global warming and everything, the rapture is near. Honestly, scientist predict that the Earth will become uninhabbitable in about 50 years or so. Or at least that's what my Social Studdies teacher said.

[Hitoshura]

I'm sure they did the same "theorys" back in 1700 days.

Science is getting cliche now.

[Pixel]

Well, history repeats itself........

[Lifrasthir]

*Shazam*
Short proof which also has a link to a site where they go through the objections and disproves them one by one.
http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/essays/courtenay1.htm

Really long in depth proof.
http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/essays/creationism.htm

And Ragnarock these processes take millions of years to happen and they are happening at the moment, it's just that there happening so slowly we can't tell.

(And Inferno is right. Big Bang theory has nothing to do with evolution.)

1. Grand Canyon was made by erosion. >_< Everyone should know that.
2. It is written in a "matter of factly" way but still it's just opinions.
3. >_< The guy shot down Creationism instead of trying to prove it wrong.

It's definately an interesting paper but still, it's opinions.

[Rekhyt]

Quick Question: Can anyone prove that "God" did it and it wasn't evolution?

[Lifrasthir]

Quick Question: Can anyone prove that "God" did it and it wasn't evolution?

Belief takes a certain amount of faith.

Okay, answer this: Why does grass grow the way it does? Why do trees sprout leaves? What did evolution do to make nature act the way it does?

[Rekhyt]

Basic answers to very general questions which are really hard to answer.

1. Grass grows the way it does because otherwise it wouldn't be grass.
2. Trees sprout leaves because if they didn't they would die from lack of energy.
3. Evolution did everything to make nature act the way it does because that’s what it does by definition.

And on the matter of faith I just happen to believe something that has been proved over and over again by every reputable biologist for the last couple of centuries than just faith. See the theory of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

[Lifrasthir]

Basic answers to very general questions which are really hard to answer.

1. Grass grows the way it does because otherwise it wouldn't be grass.
2. Trees sprout leaves because if they didn't they would die from lack of energy.
3. Evolution did everything to make nature act the way it does because that’s what it does by definition.

And on the matter of faith I just happen to believe something that has been proved over and over again by every reputable biologist for the last couple of centuries than just faith. See the theory of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

1. Why wouldn't grass be grass if it grew a different way?
2. Why do leaves harnest energy for trees?
3. Why is that the definition?

Flying Spaghetti Monster?

[Rekhyt]

1. Because if it grew by, for example, metamorphasis it wouldn't be grass. It would be a mutant half grass/ half caterpillar freak. The questions a bit off in my opinion.
2. Leaves harness energy for trees by absorbing light which it uses as a catalyst for the Photsynthesis reaction which creates energy as a product. It does this becasue it evolved into doing it.
3.Because evolution is the process which shaped nature and thus it acts in the way it does becasue f evolution.

And the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a theory used in the proof that God dosn't exist. basically it means you can't just say something is true just becasue you can't disprove it.
See wikipedia- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

[Alphonse]

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o269/Untouchable_Memories/bigbangtheory.gif

Yep!lol Thas exacly it!lol

[Neal]

Haha, we were watching a simpsons episode on this earlier today.

I got a question, if evolution was true, howcome its not happening anymore? O.O

It takes millions of years.

I find things changing and adapting to their environment to survive more believable than "they just appeared".

Belief takes a certain amount of faith.

wtf...? whats that got to do with his question?


And the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a theory used in the proof that God dosn't exist. basically it means you can't just say something is true just becasue you can't disprove it.
See wikipedia- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

wtf what a shit name for it. :lol: Good point though.

Touched by his noodly appendage LMFAO.

[Lifrasthir]

1. Because if it grew by, for example, metamorphasis it wouldn't be grass. It would be a mutant half grass/ half caterpillar freak. The questions a bit off in my opinion.
2. Leaves harness energy for trees by absorbing light which it uses as a catalyst for the Photsynthesis reaction which creates energy as a product. It does this becasue it evolved into doing it.
3.Because evolution is the process which shaped nature and thus it acts in the way it does becasue f evolution.

And the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a theory used in the proof that God dosn't exist. basically it means you can't just say something is true just becasue you can't disprove it.
See wikipedia- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

1. I don't have any come backs...which is a good thing I guess...
2. How did leaves develop the Photosynthesis reaction? From what? And how did leaves get to be on trees in the first place?
3. That's not exactly an answer....

Flying Spaghetti Monster...interesting...:blink:

wtf...? whats that got to do with his question?

Read this Dante.
Quick Question: Can anyone prove that "God" did it and it wasn't evolution? I said that because I really can't answer that question. It's not up to me. But there is a verse in the Bible that says that the heavens and Earth declare that God is here. Don't ask me where I can't remember any of that stuff.

[Neal]

Well thats exactly it. He's trying to say that you can't disregard evolution when theres so much proof and none for creation.


2. How did leaves develop the Photosynthesis reaction? From what? And how did leaves get to be on trees in the first place?

Where did god come from? What made him? You're asking questions that are unreasonable, no one can answer that.

[ozonez]

The big bang theory isn't just something going "bang" and creating the entire universe. As seeing as how sound can't travel in space there wouldn't be a bang anyway. Scientists think that something called Dark Matter (i think it was called that) reacted with something else and formed the universe.

Onto evolution, evolution takes millions if not billions of years, sometimes it does skip a century (mutation but only when scientists mess about with DNA which we aren't supposed to do) Because we evoled from a primape (land) we became land mammals and evolution made us the dominant species on earth. Evolution has loads of options but it dorts it all out. Humans haven't stopped evolving (which is the mistake in most time films when they go forward 1000000000 years and humans are exactly the same)

[Lifrasthir]

Well thats exactly it. He's trying to say that you can't disregard evolution when theres so much proof and none for creation.

Where did god come from? What made him? You're asking questions that are unreasonable, no one can answer that.

I'm not disregarding evolution I'm just trying to prove my point. And there is evidence of creation all over. If you want that evidence I suggest you talk with my pastor. o_o

What's hard to realize is that God has been around forever. Not as in a really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really long time. Literally forever. You ask how that can be? Time is a human creation. Not a divine one. So, when the book of Genesis talks about God making the world in seven days, you have to consider actually how long that was. It most likely wasn't the 24 hour system we have today.

I actually disagree with you Dante. These questions aren't unreasonable, they're questions trying to get an answer. And you guys are trying to answer them through an evolutionist's eyes. But you see, evolution can't explain every single bit in our lives.

[masamune]

The big bang theory isn't just something going "bang" and creating the entire universe. As seeing as how sound can't travel in space there wouldn't be a bang anyway. Scientists think that something called Dark Matter (i think it was called that) reacted with something else and formed the universe.

Onto evolution, evolution takes millions if not billions of years, sometimes it does skip a century (mutation but only when scientists mess about with DNA which we aren't supposed to do) Because we evoled from a primape (land) we became land mammals and evolution made us the dominant species on earth. Evolution has loads of options but it dorts it all out. Humans haven't stopped evolving (which is the mistake in most time films when they go forward 1000000000 years and humans are exactly the same)

I disagree with your last point. Evolution is ALMOST wiped out from humanity, and its simple to understand: evolution happens when a creature thet doesn't fit well in a certain place dies, and the ones that fit survive and generates descendants, and these differences between beings of the same specimen happens when some mutations make them fit better to their world. Its hard to imagine this happening in a million or billion years, but you take AIDS as an example: some people are immune to this dicease, cause some mutations in their linfocyts T CD4 membrane doesn't allow that the HIV enters their cytoplasm and causes the dicease. This, if humanity haven't making campaings to erradicate AIDS, and haven't discovering ways to keep people alive would end with the natural selection of these people who are immune to the HIV, and thats EVOLUTION. Another example i remembered now is about the global warming (i don't kow if thats the correct term): with increased UV radiation white people would (maybe they will) soon die with so many skin diceases etc, but black people cause of the higher melanin amounts they have in theyr skin would survive.

[Rekhyt]

I actually disagree with you Dante. These questions aren't unreasonable, they're questions trying to get an answer. And you guys are trying to answer them through an evolutionist's eyes. But you see, evolution can't explain every single bit in our lives.

Yes it can. It's just difficult for us to do as we do not have docterates in Bio-Chemistry. Similarly we do not know the entire biological history of grass. Someone does, someone has proved it, it's just that grass isn't very interesting and therefore very few people have actually bothered to do this.

Also I think it's a bit lame that scientists have to prove everything they do while Theists can just say "God did it".

[Lifrasthir]

Yes it can. It's just difficult for us to do as we do not have docterates in Bio-Chemistry. Similarly we do not know the entire biological history of grass. Someone does, someone has proved it, it's just that grass isn't very interesting and therefore very few people have actually bothered to do this.

Also I think it's a bit lame that scientists have to prove everything they do while Theists can just say "God did it".

Well it's hard for me to explain the creationistic point of view because I never went to seminary school or anything.

We don't say "God did it" as expect everyone to believe us. But you should consider our opinions just as we should consider the evolutionist opinions.

[masamune]

Well it's hard for me to explain the creationistic point of view because I never went to seminary school or anything.

We don't say "God did it" as expect everyone to believe us. But you should consider our opinions just as we should consider the evolutionist opinions.

We must respect both opinions, but considering a thing that's based only in faith is a little too much for me.

[Rikku]

^ Agreed

And at the end of the day, you are just saying that God did it. You're making attempts to disprove evolution, yes (an improvement from some other debates I've seen), but that's only to support the aforementioned statement.

Also, the first page of this is probably the most horrid bit of the "serious discussion" category I've ever seen.

That being said, I believe in evolution. There are definite holes in the theory, yes, but that is only because scientists are trying hard to find the truth instead of... you know, just believing without questioning. I really have nothing to input because others have answered responses quite nicely. ^^;

[Pixel]

Well, I think that man was created by God and the whole chimp thing is just a coinsidence....I do however think that some animals, reptiles, Etc. evolved into other things in order to survive.

The whole theory that things just started out as a single cell and evolved into all these things is a bit of a stretch for me....But then again so is "god created everything." I am just waiting for a breakthrough to happen to disprove one of the two...

[Neal]

Just a coinsidence? LOL

If you think thats other animals evolved in order to survive why is it so impossible that maybe humans evolved from something o_O

[Hitoshura]

Forget about the theory of us coming out of some ooze.

How did the earth even get there to begin with? 0.o

[Pixel]

Well, I think that man was created by God...

Dante, that would be my answer to that. And, I guess it is possible, but I still believe we were made by God...

And the earth/universe is made by....
- The Big Bang Theory
- Or Some Religion's Story, such as the one I believe, which is that God created it...

EDIT: And yes, I do not think that a breakthrough will happen anytime soon....

[Rikku]

The Big Bang theory is completely off topic to that of evolution.

Well, I think that man was created by God and the whole chimp thing is just a coinsidence....I do however think that some animals, reptiles, Etc. evolved into other things in order to survive.

Sorry, that contradicts the bible. Somewhere in Genesis, some tiny scripture which I've forgotten the numbers of states that animals produced to their own kind -- that pretty much destroys the concept of evolution.

[Neal]

I REMEMBERED SOMETHING FROM BIOLOGY. Well, I think its right so if anyone wants to correct me then do, but I this is what I remember.

This is a good example of present day evolution.

Alot of people who live in places like Africa have sickle cell anemia. This is when your blood cells are shaped strangley and can cause alot of pain. HOWEVER :rolleyes: having sickle cell anemia gives you alot of resistance, almost immunity to malaria. As you may or may not know its common there.

So, some people in areas where the deadly disease Malaria have immunity to it. Just a coinsidence? no. Sickle Cell anemia is very uncommon among people that arent or have no decdendants from these areas.

[Lucrecia]

I REMEMBERED SOMETHING FROM BIOLOGY. Well, I think its right so if anyone wants to correct me then do, but I this is what I remember.

This is a good example of present day evolution.

Alot of people who live in places like Africa have sickle cell anemia. This is when your blood cells are shaped strangley and can cause alot of pain. HOWEVER :rolleyes: having sickle cell anemia gives you alot of resistance, almost immunity to malaria. As you may or may not know its common there.

So, some people in areas where the deadly disease Malaria have immunity to it. Just a coinsidence? no. Sickle Cell anemia is very uncommon among people that arent or have no decdendants from these areas.

Wait a second.....I think I learned that in the beginning of te school year.:blink: Yeah, I think that's how it goes. Something about the hemoglobin not being able to carry out it's function, therefore breaking down a near membrane. However, it also attacks the parasite of malaria.....right???

[Pixel]

I did not mean other things as in other animals, just resistances to stuff, the cold, the heat, Etc.....

And I said the Big Bang Theory 'cause Kira asked how the earth came to be....

I really need to start a topic I am actually good at....

[ozonez]

Well, I think that man was created by God and the whole chimp thing is just a coinsidence....I do however think that some animals, reptiles, Etc. evolved into other things in order to survive.

The whole theory that things just started out as a single cell and evolved into all these things is a bit of a stretch for me....But then again so is "god created everything." I am just waiting for a breakthrough to happen to disprove one of the two...

Thats a bit silly. I doubt (if he exists) that God would go "there you go, humans" and then create animals in their base forms and go "they can do it by themselves."

The fact that its proven that cells can split into 2 kinda proves the theory of evolution.

[Lifrasthir]

The fact that its proven that cells can split into 2 kinda proves the theory of evolution.

You wanna elaborate on that theory?

[Ringlets]

As i said in the other thread, of the billions of planets out there, one of them had to spawn cells with a self-thinking consciousness.

The way things evolve have alot to do with environment, which is why little evoloution has been observed recently (i.e the last 500,000 years). The climate since early civilization has been the same, which is the reason why civilization has maintained itself. So for 500,000 years, the human skeleton and organism has remained pretty much the same. However, as global warming kicks in, maybe in a few thousand years time, out of the millions of cells in our bodies, one might not be there, which might make a tiny difference to something. So i believe in evolution, but because of the time scale it exists over, there is no chance of prooving of disprooving it.

[007vader]

Maybe I don't fully understand Evolution but as I understand it. According to Evolution we ended up here by chance right? So here's what I don't get. There was the Big Bang then all this stuff flew out into what became space and there happened to be the laws of gravity. Then after like, a billion years of stuff running into itself we finally came up with a perfectly working solar system.
Then one planet on this solar system happened to have water and organic matter. (Wow what are the odds) Then after a couple of million years the water and matter decided it needed to become a living organism and the laws of the universe happened to allow that to be possible.
Then after a billion years of evolution the matter and water turned into something that was alive and the for some weird reason that "goop"decided to go on living for a billion more years. And decided it needed legs somewhere along the way. Then it decided it needed to work in pairs. (WTF why?!?! That wasn't very forward thinking of it. It'd be much simpler with just one, although less fun but I don't think the goop would care much for fun.)
Then it decided to work in pairs and somehow stayed alive during the whole in between process. Oh and then during this whole Billion year process the planet managed to stay completely stable and didn't get blown away by any meteors and the sun didn't fail or anything. (And to think we worry about global warming and getting hit by meteors)
And then meanwhile some other goop had instead decided to become a plant. and then after all of these different changes and billions of years of not getting hit by major disasters we managed to come where we are now. Oh and for some reason the goop decided to get intelligent. I mean why, animals do just fine. And then for some reason all of this stuff came out looking incredibly beautiful and working perfectly.

So my question to you is do you really believe that? Because I just don't see it. I mean the odds are like, what a googleplex to one. I mean really when you think about it it sounds silly!
I'm not really trying to offend you all but the whole theory sounds bizarre to me.
And it's so demeaning, it means we have no purpose in life we are here because we got lucky. And once we die we're dead and had no real significance and and are a pointlessly existing animals just waiting for our turn to die.

I would really like you all to try and clarify this for me.

[Rophe]

Well, for one thing, evolution is about 'deciding' it is about breeding, two evolution can actually be seen to have happened in fossils. Three, this whole chance thing, obviously there are as many different theories among atheists as theists but I'm a firm believer in the oscillating universe theory which means that all possibilities will happen an infinite number of times, including the planet luckily forming in the correct place. Meaning that there is an infinite number where they aren't.
But that is just one possible reason for the whole 'luck' thing.

Evolution can basically be proved if you do the research.
http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/essays/courtenay1.htm

[Rekhyt]

Firstly, although it is improbable that the Earth has managed to survive for as long as it has when you consider the size of the universe it's statistically probable that at least one (and almost definitely more) planets will be able to bear life.

Secondly, things don't just appear with more legs, they evolve over millions of years, due to breeding and minor mutations. This process is impossible to disprove not just because of the overwhelming evidence from fossils and living animals (Galapagos tortoises) but because humans have been using the similar process of selective breeding to create superior livestock and crops.

Thirdly,, despite how every anti-evolutionist sees it, chance has nothing to do with it. It's caused by "survival of the fittest" and random mutations which happen in every species all the time.

Also, the reason why asexual microbes diversed into fertilization is to ensure that the species diversified faster making it safer from natural disaster, diseases etc.

Finally if you don't understand something don't insult it. Everything you said can be proven in some way. Despite what the Bible says, Evolution is scientific fact.

[Whiplash]

Thirdly,, despite how every anti-evolutionist sees it, chance has nothing to do with it. It's caused by "survival of the fittest" and random mutations which happen in every species all the time.

While I agree with everything you've said I must butt in at this point (we studied this fairly thoroughly this year and I might as well put it to use); chance does play a part in which genes get passed onto the next generation, it's called random genetic drift. While this includes things like Founder's Effect and migration, perhaps the best example is to look at it like this:

Pretend this is a colony of bugs, with each symbol being a bug with a particular gene

* * ^ * ^
^ ^ * * *
* * * @ *
^ * * * *

Now, some of these bugs will be stepped on, some might be killed in a storm or (in more extreme cases like what is presumed to have happened to the cheetah) some large scale natural disaster might wipe out half the bugs and some of the bugs simply won't get a chance to reproduce (it happens with us). Now the population looks like this:

* ^ ^
^ ^
@
^

The important thing is that these events are non-selective. The different genes the bugs carry give them no particular advantage for survival or reproducing in these events, so a rare
gene (i.e. ^) can suddenly become more common because, by chance, it has survived and other genes (i.e. *) have randomly (hence the name, random genetic drift) become less frequent.

Founder's Effect has a really rather interesting example in real life if anyone would like me to expand on this and, for those who don't know and for clarification, here is the basic outline of Darwin and Wallace's Theory of Evolution:
1. There is variation within a population
2. More offspring are born than can survive
3. There is competition for resources (food, space, etc.)
4. Nature favours one characteristic over another
5. Those with the favourable characteristic survive and reproduce
6. Over time (lots and lots and lots of time) the population appears to change
7. The frequency of the favourable characteristic increases and the unfavourable characteristic decreases

On with the show and on topic, the only problem I have with the theory of evolution is why we would've developed brains with a capacity for thought so far beyond our needs for survival, unless we got into the ultimate game of one-upmanship. I don't believe in intelligent design because so many designs are quite frankly stupid, like those primitive organisms that shit and eat with the same orifice.

This long and largely pointless post was brought to you by Whiplash: Potato Cubes for Everyone! Spoken by W. Lash.

[Rophe]

Then let us all just agree to disagree...with vader.

The point is this stuff can all be proved, if not the cause the thing itself, evolution is fact, if in science or religion. Atheists will believe in the evolution caused by chance and such whereas theists believe in the whole God began or is continually involved in evolution, you cannot deny evolution. As irritating as I find most theists views on the universe, only the 'creationists' or anti-evolutionists bug me beyond bareability because they just deny blatant facts. Its like saying the world is shaped like a crab or humans all have three legs.

[007vader]

http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/essays/courtenay1.htm (http://www.mala.bc.ca/%7Ejohnstoi/essays/courtenay1.htm)
Ok... that was a really big hypothesis. There was almost no evidence involved in that and he wasn't that convincing.
And the fact that he says evolution is fact means he doesn't know that much. You cannot prove anything with science. ANYTHING!!
opphttp://www.leaderu.com/science/helweg.html
Read this.

[Rekhyt]

WHAT?! Of course you can prove things with science. It's the entire point of science, to prove how things work. Someone creates a theory about how something works and then evidence is provided to prove it.

For example Evolution, Darwin (and others) came up with the theory of Evolution and then the evidence provided by the creators of the theory and those who support it show that the theory is correct. That makes it a fact by the way.

Now if you would be so kind as to tell us exactly what you think caused the creation of life we would be happy to go through it and point out any problems we have with it.

[Neal]

You cannot prove anything with science. ANYTHING!!

ROFL. You've clearly run out of arguments. What an idiotic thing to say.

[007vader]

WHAT?! Of course you can prove things with science. It's the entire point of science, to prove how things work. Someone creates a theory about how something works and then evidence is provided to prove it.

For example Evolution, Darwin (and others) came up with the theory of Evolution and then the evidence provided by the creators of the theory and those who support it show that the theory is correct. That makes it a fact by the way.

Actually scientific method can't prove anything. Because the answers to science are always tentative. You make a Hypothesis and then after a number of consistent tests it becomes a theory then after generations of consistent evidence it becomes a scientific law. But the conclusions of science can always be proven wrong with one counter example. So it cannot be "proven" in any way because it can still be proven wrong by definition. I've just learned this in school.

Did any of you look at the link I posted? http://www.leaderu.com/science/helweg.html

[Rophe]

Okay, first things first... a couple of parts interested and irritated me. I would be intrigued to find out if the writer was a Theist or Atheist, because either way there would obviously be a very strong bias.

"There has (and continues to be) a confusion between primary causes and secondary causes. The study of natural science deals with secondary causes while theology studies primary causes."

Science assumes that what the writer puts as 'secondary causes' are the primary causes. There being no designer means that the set order of certain parts of the universe, or at least the section we occupy, could be seen as a 'primary cause' as the writer puts it. For example, temperature or pressure.

"Understanding these natural phenomena as secondary causes, places God above them where increased ability to explain how they occur not only does not "decrease" God, but adds wonder to His creation."

This is just stupid, this is a theists using the old worn out argument of "god did it". This is merely saying whatever science works out we can strengthen our position bty assuming God did it.

And this part really annoyed me:

"It is an interesting historical question as to why, science, conceived in a Christian culture by many Christians, was turned against Christianity and why Christians allowed this to happen. "

Science is not an opposition to Theism no matter how much Theists wish it to be. Science is a neutral stand point merely to work out more about the universe in which we live. The section about the God of Gaps gives a good example, science merely wishes to fill those gaps. I would have thought that any sensible Theist would realise that instead of seeing science as an enemy they could use it as a way to better understand their various gods.

My final point is that it really looks like the writer is writing from a theists viewpoint. So he may be corrupted by bias.

[007vader]

Okay, first things first... a couple of parts interested and irritated me. I would be intrigued to find out if the writer was a Theist or Atheist, because either way there would obviously be a very strong bias.

"There has (and continues to be) a confusion between primary causes and secondary causes. The study of natural science deals with secondary causes while theology studies primary causes."

Science assumes that what the writer puts as 'secondary causes' are the primary causes. There being no designer means that the set order of certain parts of the universe, or at least the section we occupy, could be seen as a 'primary cause' as the writer puts it. For example, temperature or pressure.

"Understanding these natural phenomena as secondary causes, places God above them where increased ability to explain how they occur not only does not "decrease" God, but adds wonder to His creation."

This is just stupid, this is a theists using the old worn out argument of "god did it". This is merely saying whatever science works out we can strengthen our position bty assuming God did it.

And this part really annoyed me:

"It is an interesting historical question as to why, science, conceived in a Christian culture by many Christians, was turned against Christianity and why Christians allowed this to happen. "

Science is not an opposition to Theism no matter how much Theists wish it to be. Science is a neutral stand point merely to work out more about the universe in which we live. The section about the God of Gaps gives a good example, science merely wishes to fill those gaps. I would have thought that any sensible Theist would realise that instead of seeing science as an enemy they could use it as a way to better understand their various gods.

My final point is that it really looks like the writer is writing from a theists viewpoint. So he may be corrupted by bias.
Okay firstly the person that wrote what you posted earlier was obviously biased in his views. So saying that what I put forth is void because it may have been written by a theist is silly.

Second Most Christians don't believe that science is an opposition to Christianity. For many, science supports Christianity and really does nothing to oppose it and instead is helpful in understanding what God has made. And like it said in the article it was originally Christians that started to use science and brought the world out of the dark ages. It's people who take it to the extreme and try and say that science can disprove God. That paint this picture that Christianity doesn't support science. It does in almost every way.
In fact as it said in that article, many Christian scientists have made a lot of progress in science due to the fact that science and Christianity actually work together perfectly. So there is no conflict between them except what those that don't want to believe in God make. So you're right Christians should use science to better understand God. And they do. I am doing a science curriculum that is based largely around doing just that.
So it sounds like you just have misunderstood Christians in that sense.

[Neal]

I thought science couldn't prove anything? Why waste your time? :cookie:

[Whiplash]

Gotta do something until the rapture.

[Lifrasthir]

Gotta do something until the rapture.

What a terrible day that will be.

[Rekhyt]

Some points:
1. Although saying the article is bias makes it void is a bit strange it still has to be taken into account.

2. Science (or at least the way you are using the word) does oppose Creationism (not Christianity itself). With the exception of deeply religious "scientists" most people believe in Evolution because there is evidence (or scientific proof) for it.

3. Saying christianity is what brought the human race out of the dark ages is one of the dumber things I've heard in a long time. While it is true most scientists of that time were Christian it is only because they would be denounced as heretics otherwise. Also most scientific advances happened during the Renaissance between the 14th and 17th centuries. Science as we know it originated in the 7th and 8th century in the Middle East (after the spread of Islam).

4. A school curriculum supporting creationism is horrendous in my opinion. Particularly in a supposedly secular school system (I'm assuming your American).

Once again I have to ask, what are your particular beliefs?

[Dark Vincent]

You cannot prove anything with science. ANYTHING!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/Dark_Vincent/1131914290686.gif

Wtf. Ban him.

[Halfmetal]

No, please, don't ban him. Oi, Vader. I'm guessing you're a Creationist or something. Which, in all likelyhood, must mean you're a Christian. Here's a question, why on earth do you guys try and advocate religious truths to be scientific facts. Religious truths are infallable aren't they? Because, they come from God, right? So that means they aren't falsifiable which means they aren't scientific. So STOP NOW!

it was originally Christians that started to use science and brought the world out of the dark ages

No, it was us MUSLIMS! Bastard, don't EVER TRY TO TAKE OUR FUCKING CREDIT! LAAAAAARGH!

:@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

[Hitoshura]

No, it was us MUSLIMS! Bastard, don't EVER TRY TO TAKE OUR FUCKING CREDIT! LAAAAAARGH!

:@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Are we supposed to be rivals then? Cause I'm Christian and all....

[Whiplash]

No, it was us MUSLIMS! Bastard, don't EVER TRY TO TAKE OUR FUCKING CREDIT! LAAAAAARGH!

:@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

If he starts claiming that Christianity invented algebra, I believe the rules allow you to declare a reverse crusade.

[Halfmetal]

Are we supposed to be rivals then? Cause I'm Christian and all....

No, no, of course not. What lead you to think that?

[Hitoshura]

No, no, of course not. What lead you to think that?

I guess its because the church sometimes overexaggerates over the difference between the two of us...

[Halfmetal]

That's rather odd. My Imam has always tried to show how similar Islam and Christianity are and how it should be easy for us to get along.

[007vader]

No, please, don't ban him. Oi, Vader. I'm guessing you're a Creationist or something. Which, in all likelyhood, must mean you're a Christian. Here's a question, why on earth do you guys try and advocate religious truths to be scientific facts. Religious truths are infallable aren't they? Because, they come from God, right? So that means they aren't falsifiable which means they aren't scientific. So STOP NOW!



No, it was us MUSLIMS! Bastard, don't EVER TRY TO TAKE OUR FUCKING CREDIT! LAAAAAARGH!

:@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Wait, I'm not really trying to prove Religion I'm trying to point out problems I have with Evolution. And yes I'm a Christian.
And I don't mean that Christianity/creationism can be proven by science I mean that they work well together. Science makes more sense when you follow Christianity. By no means am I saying that anything in religion can be made a scientific law. But they're not against each other.

And I'm not sure what you mean about the Muslims bringing us out of the dark ages through science. I've never heard anyone say that and I didn't mean to offend you. I was referring to the fact that science was supported by the Church and many of the scientists that gave us much of the knowledge that we still use today was done by Christians.
Some points:
1. Although saying the article is bias makes it void is a bit strange it still has to be taken into account.

2. Science (or at least the way you are using the word) does oppose Creationism (not Christianity itself). With the exception of deeply religious "scientists" most people believe in Evolution because there is evidence (or scientific proof) for it.

3. Saying christianity is what brought the human race out of the dark ages is one of the dumber things I've heard in a long time. While it is true most scientists of that time were Christian it is only because they would be denounced as heretics otherwise. Also most scientific advances happened during the Renaissance between the 14th and 17th centuries. Science as we know it originated in the 7th and 8th century in the Middle East (after the spread of Islam).

4. A school curriculum supporting creationism is horrendous in my opinion. Particularly in a supposedly secular school system (I'm assuming your American).

Once again I have to ask, what are your particular beliefs?

Re to 1. Why? that other article was more blatantly biased.

RE to 2. No it doesn't. Unless you think I'm using the word differently that I am. And there are still tons of Christian Scientists. One of the lead researchers in I think it was Stem cell research is a Christian.

RE to 3. Some of the things you find dumb astound me when a lot of things you have said are a lot dumber.

Re to 4. Yes I'm American. And why on earth is that horrendous? It's still a science curriculum and still teaches about science it just doesn't support evolution.

I am a Christian.

And Dante your posts are annoying and pointless so give something to move the debate forward unless you don't have anything else to comment on except a couple minor mistakes I've made. And even then I didn't say science could prove anything so I'm not sure what you mean. It can support or work well with an idea and that's all I said.

[Rekhyt]

1. I was saying that, just because something is biased it shouldn’t be completely discounted and it can still have some merit.

2. There is a difference between a Christian and a creationist. A Christian can still believe in Evolution, they just see it as God's method. A creationist believes the bible is the direct word of god, is completely infallible and every person on Earth was spawned from Adam and Eve. A Christian can use science to better understand God. A creationist defies science and logic in favour of blind faith. Please stop using Christian as a blanket term for creationists.

3. Seeing as how everything you said about science and Christianity’s history defies all facts you are wrong and thus what you said was dumb (high brow theological talk here). Can you give an example of something I’ve said that was dumb?

4. Evolution is scientific fact (in my and most peoples' opinion) and thus teaching an alternative in a science class is insulting to the subject. It's the equivalent of teaching French in an English class but saying that it's actually English (bit of an odd analogy there but it works).

Also Muslims did do more than Christianity in bringing us out of the dark ages.

For the record, you're not wanting to talk about creationism's major fault says something about the arguments for it.

[Halfmetal]

Wait, I'm not really trying to prove Religion I'm trying to point out problems I have with Evolution. And yes I'm a Christian.
And I don't mean that Christianity/creationism can be proven by science I mean that they work well together. Science makes more sense when you follow Christianity. By no means am I saying that anything in religion can be made a scientific law. But they're not against each other.

Okay, fair enough, then. The only reason you dispute Evolution is becuase you don't think it's the best scientific explanation. Good. That's fine. Unfortunately Rekhyt things you have a bit of a hidden agenda.

Okay, so you say that science and Christianity work well together. But all I see is that they are just too damn different with contradicting philosophies to be able to work well together. That doesn't mean they can't get along. I just don't think they can work in anyway, without one of them having one way or something. For example, what happen if current bit of science DOES contradict, what is considered to be a literal passage of the Bible. There's no middle ground, then. It's either Science or Religion.

I need you to explain how Christianity and Science work well together, and how science can be seen better in the light of Christianity.


And I'm not sure what you mean about the Muslims bringing us out of the dark ages through science. I've never heard anyone say that and I didn't mean to offend you. I was referring to the fact that science was supported by the Church and many of the scientists that gave us much of the knowledge that we still use today was done by Christians.

W.T.F? How can you not be sure what I meant? You said almost exactly the same thing.

Yes, I know that's what you really meant but I think you'll find it was us Muslims that supported science and that many of the scientists that gave us much of the knowledge that we still use today was done by Muslims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#Muslim_Scientific_Revolution

Besides, just becuase it was done by them, doesn't mean their religion helped them.

[Whiplash]

It was really the Muslim culture, particularly around Turkey, that preserved and developed a lot of scientific disciplines during the Dark Ages when Christian Western Europe saw science as the enemy.

[Rophe]

I think the main confusion that is happening here is the definition of Creationism. Christianity can work well with Science. Creationism cannot. Teaching creationism as well as evolution is alright if it is given as a philosophical option but not as fact, there is no fallible proof of creationism but there is of evolution (fossils etc.)

So, I have one question for you Vader.

Are you a modern right-minded Christian, or a Creationist?


And one more, thing...Islam was more important in the development of modern science. I know it's been said a lot already, I just thought that that was such a dumb point you made the counter should be re-iterated constantly.

[Halfmetal]

And one more, thing...Islam was more important in the development of modern science. I know it's been said a lot already, I just thought that that was such a dumb point you made the counter should be re-iterated constantly.

I don't think that's entirely right. I agree with you there, but one could see it another way. Word play, here. You said Islam was important. There isn't hard evidence for this, I don't think. At least not that I'm aware of. It could've simply been that they were brilliant scientists and Muslims because they were just born into it.

That was probably what you meant and everyone else knew, in which case I'm being stupid, here, but I thought I'd just make sure. Vader was making the point that some important discoveries were made by Christians, anyway, and so made a connection I thought was wrong.

[Rekhyt]

The point is that Vader foolishly said that Christians were responsible for bringing the world out of the Dark Ages through science. He said this as a way of showing how christian scientists can exist and do some good for the world. However, unlike the arabic world, many scientific discoveries were repressed and thought of as heresy (e.g. Galileo) by the catholic church. Also seeing as how they lived in a world where the unfaithful were few in number and outcasted from society, it is no suprise that the few scientists present were Christian. The arabic world didn't (as far as I know) have these problems.

Can we please get back on topic know? That topic being how evolution is (or is not) scientific fact.

/tangent.

[007vader]

Okay, fair enough, then. The only reason you dispute Evolution is becuase you don't think it's the best scientific explanation. Good. That's fine. Unfortunately Rekhyt things you have a bit of a hidden agenda.

Okay, so you say that science and Christianity work well together. But all I see is that they are just too damn different with contradicting philosophies to be able to work well together. That doesn't mean they can't get along. I just don't think they can work in anyway, without one of them having one way or something. For example, what happen if current bit of science DOES contradict, what is considered to be a literal passage of the Bible. There's no middle ground, then. It's either Science or Religion.

I need you to explain how Christianity and Science work well together, and how science can be seen better in the light of Christianity.



W.T.F? How can you not be sure what I meant? You said almost exactly the same thing.

Yes, I know that's what you really meant but I think you'll find it was us Muslims that supported science and that many of the scientists that gave us much of the knowledge that we still use today was done by Muslims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#Muslim_Scientific_Revolution

Besides, just becuase it was done by them, doesn't mean their religion helped them.
What I meant by that was that people that follow a Christian world view (meaning by following the bible and creationism) And it is true that many scientists today are Christian/creationists and that world view has very few contradictions in science. as ou said if there was anything in the bible that is contradicted by science then there would be a problem. But I would like any on of you to give me a good example of a time that has ever happened.

RE: "W.T.F.? how can y.... " I'm sorry that can out wrong. I understood what you meant I just meant I hadn't heard that so I was kind of confused.

1. I was saying that, just because something is biased it shouldn’t be completely discounted and it can still have some merit.

2. There is a difference between a Christian and a creationist. A Christian can still believe in Evolution, they just see it as God's method. A creationist believes the bible is the direct word of god, is completely infallible and every person on Earth was spawned from Adam and Eve. A Christian can use science to better understand God. A creationist defies science and logic in favour of blind faith. Please stop using Christian as a blanket term for creationists.

3. Seeing as how everything you said about science and Christianity’s history defies all facts you are wrong and thus what you said was dumb (high brow theological talk here). Can you give an example of something I’ve said that was dumb?

4. Evolution is scientific fact (in my and most peoples' opinion) and thus teaching an alternative in a science class is insulting to the subject. It's the equivalent of teaching French in an English class but saying that it's actually English (bit of an odd analogy there but it works).

Also Muslims did do more than Christianity in bringing us out of the dark ages.

For the record, you're not wanting to talk about creationism's major fault says something about the arguments for it.

RE: 1. Oh sorry, I misunderstood you.

RE: 2. I'm a Creationist and that's what I've been referring to Christianity as all this time.

RE: 3. When have i defiled facts? "Everything you said can be proven in some way. Despite what the Bible says, Evolution is scientific fact" I personally found that to be dumb since half of what I had stated there couldn't be proven in. Or really supported by much other than that you and a number of scientists think it's probable.

Re: 4. I can't understand why you all think it's a scientific fact!!! It's not, I've heard so many arguments against it that it can't be a fact. And besides it's not called a scientific law it's called a theory. So it's not a fact!! Even if science can prove something it hasn't proved evolution!



And I'm not going to debate how much Muslims helped science. I'm sure that's all true and I won't argue about it. My only point had been that a lot of the important scientists in those days were Christians. :) K?

The only reason I'm not addressing the Creationism faults that you may put up are because we've already had sooooo many debates about all of that already. And I made this forum to talk about evolution. But if you would like you (Rekhyt only) can point out one major fault with Creationism then I'll try to address it. But it has to be a fault, not something about it you don't understand or something.


Also I think I know why we may be having a lot of trouble with this. I think it may have to do partly with the fact that I think a lot of you are from the UK. That's not a bad thing in any way, but I think it's making it harder for us to communicate. As we may have have different cultures and not been exposed to different stuff. So just a possibility.:)

[Whiplash]

RE: 2. I'm a Creationist and that's what I've been referring to Christianity as all this time.

Please don't because I'm Catholic and not a Creationist and don't want to be thought of as one. There's a reason we have these levels of distinction, for clarity's sake, please use them.


Re: 4. I can't understand why you all think it's a scientific fact!!! It's not, I've heard so many arguments against it that it can't be a fact. And besides it's not called a scientific law it's called a theory. So it's not a fact!! Even if science can prove something it hasn't proved evolution!


When it's called a theory it means that in future, with further technological advancements and discoveries, it might change but for now all the evidence points to it being true and so it is accepted as such by all serious scientists. This wasn't something that was casually decided, to get the title of 'theory' and not 'hypothesis' takes a lot of work in the scientific world.


And I'm not going to debate how much Muslims helped science. I'm sure that's all true and I won't argue about it. My only point had been that a lot of the important scientists in those days were Christians. :) K?

Ironically, Darwin was Christian.


But if you would like you (Rekhyt only)
I feel left out :(


Also I think I know why we may be having a lot of trouble with this. I think it may have to do partly with the fact that I think a lot of you are from the UK. That's not a bad thing in any way, but I think it's making it harder for us to communicate. As we may have have different cultures and not been exposed to different stuff. So just a possibility.

Which is strange because I'm from Australia and yet I have no difficulty understanding these Johnny Foreigners from the UK. Maybe because Australia wasn't founded by Puritans, just convicts (except my city, we had to bring in convicts later because no one wanted to get their hands dirty and build things. Hurray for forced labour!)


I have no trouble believing that we're related to monkeys when I see topics like these.

[Rekhyt]

RE: 3. When have i defiled facts? "Everything you said can be proven in some way. Despite what the Bible says, Evolution is scientific fact" I personally found that to be dumb since half of what I had stated there couldn't be proven in. Or really supported by much other than that you and a number of scientists think it's probable.

Evolution is scientific fact because scientists see it as fact. They do this because there is extensive evidence for it. By looking at fossil evidence, modern creatures and genetics (which you can not deny due to the fact that evidence is everywhere) they can see that it has to be true.


Re: 4. I can't understand why you all think it's a scientific fact!!! It's not, I've heard so many arguments against it that it can't be a fact. And besides it's not called a scientific law it's called a theory. So it's not a fact!! Even if science can prove something it hasn't proved evolution!

Just because it's called a theory doesn’t mean it hasn't been proven. For example Pythagoras Theorem is mathematical fact despite the use of the word theory in the name.
But if you would like you (Rekhyt only) can point out one major fault with Creationism then I'll try to address it.

One major flaw eh? How about the complete lack of evidence for creationism when compared to the overwhelming evidence for Evolution? Why is there evidence for one and not for the other (unless you can somehow come up with proof for the existence of God you're in trouble here).

For the record i find it a little irritating that your stipulating how many points I’m allowed to make.

[007vader]

You know what? I've just realized that I'm wasting my time. I'm probably never going to convince you and you'll probably never convince me. And in the end this is all a silly debate about whether or not we got here by chance and have no purpose. And really at the end of the day I'm not gonna bother wasting my life trying to convince you of this when I know I can't win. You have already accepted evolution as a fact and sadly I don't know enough about the subject to convince you otherwise. I however have heard enough on the subject (in person) to be sure of why I believe what I believe.

So I hope someone else comes along (In person) that can convince you otherwise but I'm not the right person. I'm being opposed too much to be able to do anything except lower your opinions of Christians(creationists) and make you think that we're arrogant.
So I'll talk to you on some other forums but I'm done trying to prove I'm right. Although I would suggest that you all ask yourself why you believe what you believe. (Don't bother posting it though)

So unless someone else wants to take over for me (Not advised) or if you all want to flaunt your victory Kitmutsu should probably go ahead and close the forum.

[Halfmetal]

What I meant by that was that people that follow a Christian world view (meaning by following the bible and creationism) And it is true that many scientists today are Christian/creationists and that world view has very few contradictions in science. as ou said if there was anything in the bible that is contradicted by science then there would be a problem. But I would like any on of you to give me a good example of a time that has ever happened.


I'm not making a list to seem like an arrogant prick, I'm just trying to make things easier:

1) The idea that the christian/creationists world view has very few contradictions in science is still debatable and by no means, a fact. Weak premise.
2) Your next sentence cleraly admits a problem which means that logically, as I have explained previously, the philosophies of Religion and Science have contradictions. Perhaps in some parts or perhaps in all. Nevertheless.
3) A good example of a time it has ever happened - Now. Evolution.
4) Whether or not it has happened in the past is besides the point, anyway.

You know what? I've just realized that I'm wasting my time. I'm probably never going to convince you and you'll probably never convince me. And in the end this is all a silly debate about whether or not we got here by chance and have no purpose. And really at the end of the day I'm not gonna bother wasting my life trying to convince you of this when I know I can't win. You have already accepted evolution as a fact and sadly I don't know enough about the subject to convince you otherwise. I however have heard enough on the subject (in person) to be sure of why I believe what I believe.

You might want to look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objections_to_evolution#Evolution_is_just_a_theory .2C_not_a_fact

These debates, I'm sure, are here to try and find the truth, but we must all understand that none of us here, or very few of us, are actually properly and fully educated in such matters. Thus we can choose not to believe in certain things here. It is just another internet forum. No one has to be convinced by anything they see here. we may all be wrong after all.

[Rekhyt]

Of course this is all a waste of time. I never thought I would change your mind and if you really thought you could change my mind, then you're delusional. These threads are just for some intellectual discussion instead.

However as you have now run off I call this thread won (for now). Anyway as I'm a mod I'm going to merge this with the old evolution thread.

(Also despite you telling me not to, I'm going to say; the reason I believe in Evolution is the overwhelming evidence, something I've said a dozen times.)

[Neal]

I guess its because the church sometimes overexaggerates over the difference between the two of us...
They teach you to be "rivals"? Pfft. If you don't agree with someones views or whatever, wanting to be their rival or hating them is stupid. Not saying you are, just saying TEACHING that is stupid.

[Halfmetal]

No, no no. That's not what he meant. He said the Chruch emphasises differences. That doesn't neccessarily mean rivalry. They were probably just trying to avoid a stereotypical argument like 'All religion is evil. The crisis in the middle east is proof of this.'

[Thimien]

my opinion, .. is..

On God..... no one car prove nothing... thats why its so easy to ask the why/how/when question to a believer and they will run out of anwsers lol

Basacly this world is rulled by time... it was created when a so called big bang 4.6billion years ago, aparantly thats how old one of the oldest rocks found was dated back to... there has ever been found living bacteria on cubes of salt preserved for millions of years and still alive..

but we are rulled by time... life span... time spent doing this and that, most importantly the time left till our sun goes out and we all die once and for all.

Who knows... so far we are just at the tip of our evolution, we are only now discoverion things that defy all nature, and our science is going mad, some try to extend life span on animals so they can one day do the same to humans.. and maybe we will live on another planed some day.... maybe some will susvive, and some wount...

Plague may kill us all to... drugs are taking less and less efect these days to kill a bug. Internet rules the world... and why halth a world is born, orther halth dies.... Science says our sun is only at halth its life span, aparantly wount go out for another 6 to 8 billion years... and we only know History and started counting time as back as the old testament... after we are dead and our kids come about... and their kids come about, there will be alot fo shit to hpn still,,, we are only now descovering what we can meddle with, and not get killed in the process, meaning the evolution is still to come.

[Devious]

I may have skipped a few posts but I felt I had to contribute. THE BIG BANG DID NOT CREATE HUMANS. We're not that old. The big bang created the universe, and in turn stars formed, and then planets, then life forms, then us. Yay.

The Big Bang was not an accident. I could say that God accidentally created us but you don't see me doing that.

According to science we don't have souls so that's not valid.

We have eyes because millions of years ago we felt the need to be aware of our surroundings rather than just stumbling randomly.

We have EARS beacause somewhere along the line we felt that seeing wasn't enough. We had to make sure that we could tell what was all around us. So we have EARS. HURRAY.

We have limbs cuz it would be awfully hard to gather food without them.

I guess smell's mainly to tell us what to eat and what not. Usually, smells bad = bad food

SO YAH EVOLUTION IS 1337


Btw, Kira, it'd be nice for once if you made a serious discussion topic without first dissing whatever side you don't agree with.

[Devious]

Double post, sorry guys.

http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20060822.gif


I HAD TO DO IT

[aldo]

Adaptation, I believe, is the most simplest form of evolution. We get used to things. We learn from our mistakes. We evolve. :aldo:

[Devious]

Adaptation, I believe, is the most simplest form of evolution. We get used to things. We learn from our mistakes. We evolve. :aldo:
I can't believe you said that.

Let me rephrase that, I can't believe you said that.

[aldo]

Pardon? :aldo:

[Devious]

'Tis nothing.

[aldo]

Oh, I see...:aldo:

[angelvalentine]

Adaptation, I believe, is the most simplest form of evolution. We get used to things. We learn from our mistakes. We evolve. :aldo:



A very agreeable explaination.
: D

[Halfmetal]

Giggidy, giggidy, gig-gi-dy!

[Nagase]

I'm sure they did the same "theorys" back in 1700 days.

Science is getting cliche now.First off, it's "Theories"....plural <3.

Ok and second, how can you call science cliche when Religon is one of the biggest cliche's of all time?

Of course evoultion exists! Evoultion has let us adapt to our surrounds to be what we are today, not just phyiscally but mentally.

Why isn't evolution happening anymore? Maybe because:

1) It can take millions of years to see any physical change in evolution! And your what, 12? wait another 999,988 years and you might see something!! ;D

2) What else could we possibly need apart from immunities?

3) Maybe some people are evolving mentally, considering we only use what? 10% of our brain?

4) Alot of people over the past few decades have been born with loads of different things such as 8 legs and the famous tail, it might be just a gene fuck up but it might also be the start of a new line of evolution.

In my opinion, Atheists are evolved versions of believers but I may be wrong.
(Ohhh Kira and Halfmetal won't like that one bit! ;D :cookie:)

[Halfmetal]

You're a bit late Nagase.

And your wrong, I don't disagree with anything you've said. You could've perhaps mentioned that religion being 'the biggest cliche's of all time' was opinion also, but i'm sure you thought that was obvious, and it doesn't seem to be a premise in your argument.

[Pain Clone]

First off, it's "Theories"....plural <3.

Ok and second, how can you call science cliche when Religon is one of the biggest cliche's of all time?

Of course evoultion exists! Evoultion has let us adapt to our surrounds to be what we are today, not just phyiscally but mentally.

Why isn't evolution happening anymore? Maybe because:

1) It can take millions of years to see any physical change in evolution! And your what, 12? wait another 999,988 years and you might see something!! ;D

2) What else could we possibly need apart from immunities?

3) Maybe some people are evolving mentally, considering we only use what? 10% of our brain?

4) Alot of people over the past few decades have been born with loads of different things such as 8 legs and the famous tail, it might be just a gene fuck up but it might also be the start of a new line of evolution.

In my opinion, Atheists are evolved versions of believers but I may be wrong.
(Ohhh Kira and Halfmetal won't like that one bit! ;D :cookie:)

i agree about every thing u just said, however i remeber hearing that we infact use more than 10% of our brains. and dosent the fact that we are make from like 30 odd cromazones that are then multipiled and mutated it to a bigger being i.e a babie. Then though out the rest of its life it is always changeing and growing. is that not prof of evolution? cause it sounds like it to me.

[Neal]

I can't believe you said that.

Let me rephrase that, I can't believe you said that.
Whats so hard to believe? It's simple fact that things evolve to adapt to an environment.


Science is getting cliche now.

LMFAO. WTF? How can you say something so STUPID? :lol: Do you even know what cliche means? I don't know what to say to that, that's just such an idiotic statement.

[Halfmetal]

Whats so hard to believe? It's simple fact that things evolve to adapt to an environment.
.


Dude, you didn't get the joke! It's not that he can't believe he said that. It's that he can't believe he said that!

[Nagase]

You're a bit late Nagase.

And your wrong, I don't disagree with anything you've said. You could've perhaps mentioned that religion being 'the biggest cliche's of all time' was opinion also, but i'm sure you thought that was obvious, and it doesn't seem to be a premise in your argument.

well no one told me about her
the way she lied
well no one told me about her
how many people cried

but it's too late to say you're sorry
how would i know
why should i care
please don't bother trying to find her
she's not there

;rave;

Anyway Evolution is more believable than thinking a genie created the world :cookie:

[Neal]

Dude, you didn't get the joke! It's not that he can't believe he said that. It's that he can't believe he said that!
Ok, I get it now... I didn't get it before because it doesnt make sense... Why wouldn't Aldo believe in evolution? He's not really religious or anything.

Anyway Evolution is more believable than thinking a genie created the world :cookie:

LOL BUT SCIENCE IS CLICHE ^^

[Nagase]

LOL BUT SCIENCE IS CLICHE ^^

INDEED!! Something that is slowly pissing on religon is obviously cliche!

We must run nude through the street crying blasphemy is we are to claim forgiveness :cookie:

[Halfmetal]

*sigh* You guys have got to stop stereotyping people.

[Misschoco]

i agree about every thing u just said, however i remeber hearing that we infact use more than 10% of our brains.
what i thought at first-and apparently einstien used 15% of his brain-this is being dismissed by some scientists.

and in relation to the topic-no one waved a magic wand and a fully developed human in one flick-its obviously been proved we evolved-how much more can you dismiss it.

LOL BUT SCIENCE IS CLICHE ^^
explain?

[Nagase]

*sigh* You guys have got to stop stereotyping people.You've got to stop taking the interentz as such serias busininznes.

the internets is just for shitz and giggles....like Jesus ^___^


and in relation to the topic-no one waved a magic wand and a fully developed human in one flick-its obviously been proved we evolved-how much more can you dismiss it.

Yep!

[Neal]

Just as soon as people stop saying things like "science can't prove anything".

[Misschoco]

Just as soon as people stop saying things like "science can't prove anything".
delusional people :rolleyes:

[Halfmetal]

You've got to stop taking the interentz as such serias busininznes.


Dude, it's called serious discussions for a reason.


@ - Dante - Well, technically speaking, they actually have a point. Even scientists would agree with that statement, although many now agree that Evolution counts as both theory and fact.

[Nagase]

Dude, it's called serious discussions for a reason.

But it's got religon in it....we should take this to spam....

[Neal]

Well, technically speaking, they actually have a point. Even scientists would agree with that statement, although many now agree that Evolution counts as both theory and fact.Oh for the love of god. The statement doesn't even make sense. Science is what proves everything we know so far, surely? Even the most basic of things like...I dunno, how your body heals when you're cut. Proven by science. It also proves a shitloads more than the bible lolz :aldo:

Either expand your statement to make some fucking sense or stfu plz :aldo:

[Misschoco]

But it's got religon in it....we should take this to spam....
i.e off topic

although many now agree that Evolution counts as both theory and fact.
natural selection seems to reinforce the 'theory'

[Nagase]

Either expand your statement to make some fucking sense or stfu plz

I like it when your fiesty <3

[Halfmetal]

Fair enough:

In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically selfconsistent model or framwork for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It originates form or is supported by experimental evidence. In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations, and is predictive, logical, and testable. In principle, scientific theories are always tentative, and subject to corrections or inclusion in a yet wider theory. Commonly, a large number of more specific hypothess may be logically bound together by just one or two theories. As a general rule for use of the term, theories tend to deal with much broader sets of universals than do hypotheses, which ordinarily deal with much more specific sets of phenomena or specific aplications of a theory.

It is commonly misunderstood that there are known truths that are superior to theories. If this is actually the case, then the seemingly "known truth" is actually a theory itself. One theory may be superior to another in terms of its aproximation of truth, but both statements are theories. Scientific tests of the quality of a theory include its conformity to known facts and its ability to generate hypotheses with outcomes that would predict further testable facts.

[Nagase]

I couldn't be bothered, nor did I have the energy to read that :( <3

[Misschoco]

Science is what proves everything we know so far, surely? Even the most basic of things like...I dunno, how your body heals when you're cut. Proven by science. It also proves a shitloads more than the bible lolz :aldo:

precisely-theories and are revelations which give us some sense into some aspects of life.Science actually explains things whilst the bible is only abstract.
I like it when your fiesty <3
scaring me shitloadz
Fair enough:

In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically selfconsistent model or framwork for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It originates form or is supported by experimental evidence. In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations, and is predictive, logical, and testable. In principle, scientific theories are always tentative, and subject to corrections or inclusion in a yet wider theory. Commonly, a large number of more specific hypothess may be logically bound together by just one or two theories. As a general rule for use of the term, theories tend to deal with much broader sets of universals than do hypotheses, which ordinarily deal with much more specific sets of phenomena or specific aplications of a theory.

It is commonly misunderstood that there are known truths that are superior to theories. If this is actually the case, then the seemingly "known truth" is actually a theory itself. One theory may be superior to another in terms of its aproximation of truth, but both statements are theories. Scientific tests of the quality of a theory include its conformity to known facts and its ability to generate hypotheses with outcomes that would predict further testable facts.
phew-just to add on-descriptions of reality are generally better understood as a statement-in science a theory would imply that something is proven true

[Neal]

Fair enough:

In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically selfconsistent model or framwork for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It originates form or is supported by experimental evidence. In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations, and is predictive, logical, and testable. In principle, scientific theories are always tentative, and subject to corrections or inclusion in a yet wider theory. Commonly, a large number of more specific hypothess may be logically bound together by just one or two theories. As a general rule for use of the term, theories tend to deal with much broader sets of universals than do hypotheses, which ordinarily deal with much more specific sets of phenomena or specific aplications of a theory.

It is commonly misunderstood that there are known truths that are superior to theories. If this is actually the case, then the seemingly "known truth" is actually a theory itself. One theory may be superior to another in terms of its aproximation of truth, but both statements are theories. Scientific tests of the quality of a theory include its conformity to known facts and its ability to generate hypotheses with outcomes that would predict further testable facts.
Ok, you didn't need to show off and write that like you're writing a book for god sake, we're teenagers.

If this is actually the case, then the seemingly "known truth" is actually a theory itself.


Not with really fucking obvious things that literally stare you in the face. That statement made me laugh because it proves the bible is even less believable. I don't see how your statement proves that science can't prove anything.

Now you've "proven" that in your own opinion, tell me how, after everything you just said about science just being made up theories, that you find the fiction that is the bible so easy to believe?

[Halfmetal]

Not with really fucking obvious things that literally stare you in the face. That statement made me laugh because it proves the bible is even less believable. I don't see how your statement proves that science can't prove anything.

If something is a theory, it's not proven. it can only be fact, if it's proven. The fact that they consider it all theory proves that they don't think it's all proven. Get it?


Now you've "proven" that in your own opinion, tell me how, after everything you just said about science just being made up theories, that you find the fiction that is the bible so easy to believe?

...? Wow that was out of the blue.

Firstly, you seem to think that just becuase I think of them as theories, that must mean i don't believe them. This is untrue. I believe in theories. The probability of something being wrong doesn't make it wrong. Especially theories backed up by a shit load of evidence. This is why I believe in what science tells me.

Secondly, I follow the Quran. As far as I'm aware of, there's nothing in it that contradicts evolution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_creationism

Thirdly, Well why shouldn't I? I am a muslim after all.

[Neal]

So you believe in your religion just because? :lol: Same thing, its all "fact because someone says so", Im not just talking about religion either. If you say science can't prove anything I dont see how religion is so believable to people.

When science tells me things like "LOL CHOLERA LIVES IN WATER AND IF YOU DRINK INFECTED WATER YOU CAN DEHYDRATE AND DIE" I know it's fact because it happens to people. :aldo:

[Halfmetal]

So you believe in your religion just because? :lol: Same thing, its all "fact because someone says so", Im not just talking about religion either. If you say science can't prove anything I dont see how religion is so believable to people.

I think you've misunderstood the concept of faith.


When science tells me things like "LOL CHOLERA LIVES IN WATER AND IF YOU DRINK INFECTED WATER YOU CAN DEHYDRATE AND DIE" I know it's fact because it happens to people. :aldo:

I hate to say this but, in the strictest sense, you don't really know because you could be wrong. Even if it is true, that still doesn't mean you actually 'know'. For example, if a Gambler says he's gonna get a hard eight and get's a hard eight, he can't say he knew it all along because he could've been wrong.

[Misschoco]

If something is a theory, it's not proven. it can only be fact, if it's proven. The fact that they consider it all theory proves that they don't think it's all proven. Get it?

...? Wow that was out of the blue.

Firstly, you seem to think that just becuase I think of them as theories, that must mean i don't believe them. This is untrue. I believe in theories. The probability of something being wrong doesn't make it wrong. Especially theories backed up by a shit load of evidence. This is why I believe in what science tells me.

Secondly, I follow the Quran. As far as I'm aware of, there's nothing in it that contradicts evolution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_creationism

Thirdly, Well why shouldn't I? I am a muslim after all.
precisely theories are speculations which are yet to be 100% fact based.take this from wiki

This usage of theory leads to the common incorrect statement "It's not a fact, it's only a theory."
:blink:i stopped being a muslim like 2 years ago to become a strong athiest.

[Neal]

Ugh for FUCK sake. :lmao: You are obviously going to keep saying stupid things like that. Just because I've never had Cholera there might be a conspiracy? Someone has had it.

[Halfmetal]

Ugh for FUCK sake. :lmao: You are obviously going to keep saying stupid things like that. Just because I've never had Cholera there might be a conspiracy? Someone has had it.

Straw-man fallacy. Look, at least I don't believe that objective facts change, like you do.

[Neal]

You believe a genie created the world, so don't try and make my beliefs sound stupid. :lol:

[Halfmetal]

You believe a genie created the world, so don't try and make my beliefs sound stupid. :lol:

1) God does not equal genie.
2) Ad Honimen.
3) I don't try and make anyone's believes look stupid. That's what you actually believe. It's not my fault if they are stupid.

[Nagase]

God does not equal genie.

Lies.

Ad Honimen.

Yep K.


3) I don't try and make anyone's believes look stupid. That's what you actually believe.

No because that would be hipocritical ;shame;

[Neal]

1) God does not equal genie.

AHAHA. Don't you understand that me and Nagase piss ourselves when you say things like that. :lol:

He can make things appear out of no where, he is therefore the equivalent to the genie in Aladin. ^_^

[Pain Clone]

1) God does not equal genie

god that cracked me up rofl lol

[Nagase]

god that cracked me up rofl lol

XD

he is therefore the equivalent to the genie in Aladin.I just threw up, that was fantastic <3.

Obviously he's a Genie, what's the difference? Similarities:

1) Both have only both been seen in fiction
2) Both are probably blue
3) Both try and grant wishes
4) Both have an evil side ;D

LOOKIN BACK ON THE TRACK FOR A LITTLE GREEN BAG!!

[Misschoco]

1) Both have only both been seen in fiction
2) Both are probably blue
3) Both try and grant wishes
4) Both have an evil side ;D


edit
1)yes
2)why must they be blue?
3)erm thing is god never does grant our wishes-because he doesnt exist
4)no comment

[Nagase]

edit
1)yes
2)why must they be blue?
3)erm thing is god never does grant our wishes-because he doesnt exist
4)no comment

2) Random
3) Agreed but im taking the piss ;D
3) Fair enough.

[Halfmetal]

1) Both have only both been seen in fiction
2) Both are probably blue
3) Both try and grant wishes
4) Both have an evil side ;D

!


1) That's what you think.
2) That's what you think.
3) That's what you think.
4) That's what you think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

Hmm, I see many differences. You know you guys are only making yourselfs look stupid. Especially when you focus entirely on the irrelevant bits. I guess reason and logic is too much for you guys. Well, it's obviously the case for Nagase.

[Neal]

ROFL.

You're the stupid one for not picking up that we're obviously taking the piss. :crazy:

[Halfmetal]

You're the stupid one for not taking this seriously.

[Misschoco]

kay-you've both have a point :rolleyes:


*coughs* now back on subject

[Neal]

You're the stupid one for not taking this seriously.
GOD. :lol: Stop being so serious internet all round the forum. :V

Anyway this video will explain things a little clearer:

http://www.fat-pie.com/healthreminder.htm

[Nagase]

1) That's what you think.
2) That's what you think.
3) That's what you think.
4) That's what you think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

Hmm, I see many differences. You know you guys are only making yourselfs look stupid. Especially when you focus entirely on the irrelevant bits. I guess reason and logic is too much for you guys. Well, it's obviously the case for Nagase.


HAHAHAHAHA YOU actually thought we were being seriousd? aAHwhdwb;ebsdrgsdr.

Logic....yes, believing in God is "Logical"....??

[Halfmetal]

HAHAHAHAHA YOU actually thought we were being seriousd? aAHwhdwb;ebsdrgsdr.

Logic....yes, believing in God is "Logical"....??

I alright. I'm going to be honest with you. As you already know, i have no idea when you are being serious and when you are not. If you remember, Nagase, I already made a mistake in thinking that you were joking when you were actually being serious. Now before you start making fun of me, I should remind you that that may say more about your debating skills than it does about me.

So here's the solution. Considering this is a Serious discussion forum where you are supposed to be serious, hows about we all be serious?

Otherwise, I'm just going to assume you are being serious all the time, analyse everything you say and tell you how stupid you are for saying it whilst ignoring all your responses of how you were just joking. It'll be quite fun, I'm sure.

[Misschoco]

It'll be quite fun, I'm sure.
In effect slightly patronizing :rolleyes:

yh now back on subject-

Does God exist? The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it

consider this question-exactly the point of evolution-we friggin developed

[Halfmetal]

In effect slightly patronizing :rolleyes:

yh now back on subject-

Does God exist? The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it

consider this question-exactly the point of evolution-we friggin developed

I'm actually doing the evolution of brain size and intelligence in Psychology. Some say those that evolved to have bigger brains and intelligence got more food and so survived better. This would exaplin why something like a cow is so stupid. They don't have to look very far to get their food. They're probably standing on it. We need plenty of protein which also increases our brain size. I don't think any biologist would argue that there was an exact point which made it happen. They would most likey argue that it was a gradual change that took millions of years.

[Nagase]

Otherwise, I'm just going to assume you are being serious all the time

I work for the klu Klux Klan.

[Halfmetal]

When it's ambiguous, arsewipe.

[Nagase]

When it's ambiguous, arsewipe.

Stop the spam this is Serious Discussions. RESPECT THE IBNTERWEBZY

[Halfmetal]

Oh so you're agreeing to stop, now?

[Misschoco]

I'm actually doing the evolution of brain size and intelligence in Psychology. Some say those that evolved to have bigger brains and intelligence got more food and so survived better. This would exaplin why something like a cow is so stupid. They don't have to look very far to get their food. They're probably standing on it. We need plenty of protein which also increases our brain size. I don't think any biologist would argue that there was an exact point which made it happen. They would most likey argue that it was a gradual change that took millions of years.
I'v always dismissed that idea-but after reading a few articles apparently its been theoretically proven. Considering that intelligence is spread across the brain-im starting to believe that-but what use is a big brain if its full of large blobs of grey matter.

[Halfmetal]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_matter#Function

[Nagase]

Oh so you're agreeing to stop, now? *Arnie*.....Negative

[Misschoco]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_matter#Function

wtf?????? thats not what the science text book in school told me *feels incredibly stupid*

[Halfmetal]

Really? What does the text book say?

[Misschoco]

Really? What does the text book say?
that grey matter is an unused mass in the brain *sets textbook on fire*

[Halfmetal]

that grey matter is an unused mass in the brain *sets textbook on fire*

Lol, you just gave me an awesome idea for Leavers Day.

[Misschoco]

Lol, you just gave me an awesome idea for Leavers Day.
have i created an arsonist :rolleyes:

[Neal]

that grey matter is an unused mass in the brain *sets textbook on fire*
Yep, that book is quite wrong. :lol:

[aldo]

A theory's something far more developed than just a "hunch".

A theory is a set of statements that have been tested and proven correct several times. Something that's been widely accepted and can be used to predict natural phenomenons. Theories become laws with time; despite of this, theories have already been accepted by most of the scientific world. :aldo: Theory of plate tectonics can be a good example. :aldo:

[Rophe]

o.O

You're scaring me Aldo, you sounded so....so educated.

Say something immature or I won't be able to sleep tonight.

But you're right, the technical definition of theory is not the colloquial meaning.

[Dream Machine]

Religion is science, just a dead one. Creationists are holding onto a belief that saw a lot of people trhough one of the big 'why!' questions of the past. 'Why is there so many purty animals in the nature?'. It was said that God did it, because you know, we needed things to shoot and cook and make trophies of.

We now have a much more sophisticated theory that takes into account empirical evidence. Its called evolution. Yay!

Also, if we were randomly created, what on earth is the point of DNA? To confuse the infidels?

[Devious]

You know, there was this book I read (fine, the first chapter of it) it's called Calculating God by Robert Sawyer or something. Anyways, alien scientists visit earth, and much to our astonishment, the aliens take the existence of God as a fact, and treat science simply as a means of which one understands God. They came to our planet because it seems that their planet, our planet, and several other planets they visisted have experienced the exact same phenomenon at the same time in each planet's development, such as the extinction of dinosaurs (though on their world it was a different species) and the coming and going of the ice ages.

A very interesting theory.

[Halfmetal]

http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue165/books2.html

[Neal]

I know this is really old, but I was looking round this category and just had to bump this for this comment:

Darwin "invented" evolution, then before he died he said it wasn't true. LOL!!!

[Stryke]

Hmm well I think the "Big Bang" is totaly crap ... you dont think so? I mean .. an big BANG and one second after all that shall exist? naah dont think so .. I think the creation of space etc is just out of our imagination (sry if i wrote it wrong ^^) ^_^

[Pain Clone]

Hmm well I think the "Big Bang" is totaly crap ... you dont think so? I mean .. an big BANG and one second after all that shall exist? naah dont think so .. I think the creation of space etc is just out of our imagination (sry if i wrote it wrong ^^) ^_^

As apposed to, God "their will be light" and their was light?

[Neal]

Hmm well I think the "Big Bang" is totaly crap ... you dont think so? I mean .. an big BANG and one second after all that shall exist? naah dont think so .. I think the creation of space etc is just out of our imagination (sry if i wrote it wrong ^^) ^_^
I think you need to do some research if you're going to say things like that. :lol: The theory is not "BANG! Trees, mountains, PlayStation 3, Policemen, Monkeys have all been created!".

and one second after all thatBloody hell, don't tell me your pastor told you that or something?

The big bang theory is the theory of the creation of the Universe, not specifically life on earth.

[Stryke]

@Nero

xD Hmm sure .. but I dont think "someone" created all that .. you know?

And.. no my pastor didnt tell me that ^^ :D I just meant that ... there should be nothing and then suddenly all that appears ? I cant imagine that .. really but : I dont think we can even imagine what really happened.. ^_^

[Neal]

Actually, your opinion is the one that's suggesting there was nothing then suddently was, not mine. :lol: I believe in evolution which as you should know takes millions of years.

[Kitmitsu]

Now now Nero. To be fair his theory isn't instant life on Earth...it took a whole seven days.

[Stryke]

Did I say I believe the crap I wrote? ;)

[Neal]

Did you? I assume when you put across an opinion and disagree with another I assume you believe those things and aren't just joining random words and phrases?

[Stryke]

...I cant imagine that ..

hm you think I am believing in that what I wrote? When u are I have to say that I am not ^^ <.<

[Neal]

So do you believe in God or not?

[olorin818]

So do you believe in God or not?


do you?

there are always arguing between people who believes in religion version of creation and the "biological" one. In both its all about faith, becasue in none of them you can find real evidence

[Neal]

No. :wtf:

[olorin818]

No. :wtf:

cant say if I am really supriesed by your anserw

[Neal]

Why's that then?

[Sadistic]

I believe that Darwin's theory on evolution (which wasn't actually his in the first place...) was semi-correct. In it, homo sapiens evolved far too late in my opinion. Looking at the modern world's species, some are actually evolving extremely rapidly. In some, changes are visible within 3 generations.
I actually think that this civilization is the second on earth. The first was wiped out in a catacylsmic event several thousand years ago.

[balthierxashe]

Einstein believed in a sort of God...not God as we understand it (he said often he did not believe in a Personal God), but a supernatural spirit or entity in the way of God. It was said the more he learned about the universe, the more convinced he was that there was some spirit.

I want to be clear that I am certainly not a Fundamentalist. I think the idea is silly, obviously. Therefore, I'm not a creationist. I was raised a Catholic (church, Catholic school etc etc), but do have problems with the church. While I don't believe in creationism, I do believe in God. I certainly cannot accept that we don't have souls. Where do all of our emotions, feelings, thoughts, personalities, etc originate? Merely in chemicals and hormones? I don't buy it.

I partially believe in evolution. I say partially because I don't believe I'm educated enough on the subject to make a concrete decision. I'm certainly not going to assume that it's the truth because everyone tells me so(you know what they say about assuming, haha). If I'm going to believe this, I'm going to know why. I also want to say that in school (yes, Catholic school) we were taught all about evolution in Biology. Obviously not enough for me to formulate a formal opinion, but enough to understand what people are saying.

Oh, and this is in response to someone talking about dark matter earlier in this thread: dark matter is basically scientists saying "We don't know what the hell this stuff is...we actually don't know for sure if anything is actually there...but we assume something is there because it would make the most sense to us as we currently understand things". Therefore I wouldn't base any argument on dark matter, because scientists have no real idea what it is. (Oh look, I learned something from my astrology class in college after all...XD)

I basically don't want to get 100% behind any belief because everything as we know it changes over time. We are silly creatures who, at any given time in history, were SURE we knew how everything worked. Our definitions of things change over time, sometimes just because some scientists in a room decided it was true (Pluto, anybody?).

I think that evolution is close to correct, but I don't think we'll ever REALLY know. After all, we can't go back in time and check it out. We aren't God (or whatever spiritual deity you would like to believe in, if you would like to believe in anything). We are tiny, arrogant humans, who f*** things up more than we help anything, and half the time we blame everybody else for doing it (global warming [if it exists...oh the flaming I'll get for that], anybody?).

Therefore, I don't see the point. Why does it matter how we came into existence? Does it change the fact of the day? Will you wake up differently tomorrow than you did yesterday having 'proved your point'? Don't get me wrong, I find history very interesting, especially ancient (human, mostly) history. I think we can learn things about ourselves through human history. And perhaps, if we ever actually got this much information/had the intelligence to discover this much information, we COULD use our origins to help out with diseases and stuff, however unlikely that may be (meaning: I doubt it).

What I really dislike about arguments like this is how petty and ridiculous people become. Calling someone an idiot doesn't make you look smarter or highlight what they said anymore than it was already. It's childish and demeaning to the whole discussion. If someone's statement is TRULY idiotic, there would be no need to point it out, now would there?

Also, just because you STRONGLY disagree with someone's opinion doesn't give you the right to bash them and tell them they're wrong, as if it's undeniable fact. It might appear to be fact to you, and that's your right to believe that, but you have no right to push that on anyone else, or try to demean them or their beliefs. You make yourself look like a close minded fool. If Einstein could be open about the world and the views inside it, then why can't you? Are you more intelligent or educated than he was?

I also want to make clear that there is no specific 'you' this is aimed at. It's for people who, in this discussion and others, fit the description.

I believe in God, I believe in souls, and I believe in consequences, and I believe in karma, and I'm not the least bit ashamed of any of that, or any of my beliefs for that matter. There is also nothing you can say, ridiculous, rude, matter-of-fact-ly, or otherwise that will change any of that. The fact is, I'm stating my opinion, and I will never buy that someone else's opinion is better than my own. Even if it's the majority ruling (remember how so many people thought the world was flat? Sad day for them, huh?). Opinion is equal, even if you don't see it that way. Please respect others. I know sometimes people make it extremely difficult to respect them, especially if they say things to piss you off or that seem stupid to you, but you are in control of yourself, are you not? So please try. If everybody could stop being so stubborn and start respecting each other more, I think a lot of difficulties in the world, that are of human origin in relation to other humans, would go away (oh, cheesy cheesy statement, lol).

P.S. About global warming, I'm not saying I don't believe it, nor am I necessarily prepared to believe it because that's the in thing. There are plenty of scientists that believe it's only nature (if you look into the past a lot of things, weather-wise, happened like this) and that we may be merely entering the next ice age. All I'm saying is that I'm not educated enough in this area to back either statement. To me, both are strong possibilities.

I'll be impressed if anyone actually reads all that, cause holy crap that's long.

[Pyramid Head]

do you?

there are always arguing between people who believes in religion version of creation and the "biological" one. In both its all about faith, becasue in none of them you can find real evidence

This argument irks me. It's like saying we should give equal credibility to the theory of general relativity and the theory of invisible space-apes pushing planets around the sun. How do you know those invisible apes aren't there? They're invisible!

[Whiplash]

You can't find real evidence of evolution, olorin? 'Cos comparative anatomy says 'hi'. As do the peppered moths.

[Pyramid Head]

I want to be clear that I am certainly not a Fundamentalist. I think the idea is silly, obviously. Therefore, I'm not a creationist. I was raised a Catholic (church, Catholic school etc etc), but do have problems with the church. While I don't believe in creationism, I do believe in God. I certainly cannot accept that we don't have souls. Where do all of our emotions, feelings, thoughts, personalities, etc originate? Merely in chemicals and hormones? I don't buy it.

You don't buy it because you don't want it to be true.

I partially believe in evolution. I say partially because I don't believe I'm educated enough on the subject to make a concrete decision. I'm certainly not going to assume that it's the truth because everyone tells me so(you know what they say about assuming, haha). If I'm going to believe this, I'm going to know why. I also want to say that in school (yes, Catholic school) we were taught all about evolution in Biology. Obviously not enough for me to formulate a formal opinion, but enough to understand what people are saying.

Do you partially believe in gravity? I'm certain that you don't understand how exactly gravity works, but there's a reason why you know it's there. The Theory of Evolution has been trying to get overthrown ever since its inception 150 years ago and it just keeps gaining more and more evidence every day. There's a reason 99.9% of biologists (according to NIH, the National Institute of Health) believe in evolution. The evidence is absolutely overwhelming and the people that do this stuff every single day know it to be true. The only thing you can possibly say is "Ummm...well scientists have been proven wrong before." That's what people say that just simply don't want to accept evolution as fact.

Oh, and this is in response to someone talking about dark matter earlier in this thread: dark matter is basically scientists saying "We don't know what the hell this stuff is...we actually don't know for sure if anything is actually there...but we assume something is there because it would make the most sense to us as we currently understand things". Therefore I wouldn't base any argument on dark matter, because scientists have no real idea what it is. (Oh look, I learned something from my astrology class in college after all...XD)

LOL, yes scientists' understanding of dark matter is as simple as you are making it out to be:lol:

I basically don't want to get 100% behind any belief because everything as we know it changes over time. We are silly creatures who, at any given time in history, were SURE we knew how everything worked. Our definitions of things change over time, sometimes just because some scientists in a room decided it was true (Pluto, anybody?).

I'm sorry, did Pluto disappear or something? Scientists' just changed how they classified it. There have been many revisions to the Theory of Evolution, but the basic principle of everything evolving from a single celled life form have remained.

I think that evolution is close to correct, but I don't think we'll ever REALLY know. After all, we can't go back in time and check it out. We aren't God (or whatever spiritual deity you would like to believe in, if you would like to believe in anything). We are tiny, arrogant humans, who f*** things up more than we help anything, and half the time we blame everybody else for doing it (global warming [if it exists...oh the flaming I'll get for that], anybody?).

I can tell by this point that you simply just don't want believe anything until you get every single fact that you need.

Therefore, I don't see the point. Why does it matter how we came into existence? Does it change the fact of the day? Will you wake up differently tomorrow than you did yesterday having 'proved your point'? Don't get me wrong, I find history very interesting, especially ancient (human, mostly) history. I think we can learn things about ourselves through human history. And perhaps, if we ever actually got this much information/had the intelligence to discover this much information, we COULD use our origins to help out with diseases and stuff, however unlikely that may be (meaning: I doubt it).

You don't find it IMPORTANT how humans came into existance? WTF?

I believe in God, I believe in souls, and I believe in consequences, and I believe in karma, and I'm not the least bit ashamed of any of that, or any of my beliefs for that matter. There is also nothing you can say, ridiculous, rude, matter-of-fact-ly, or otherwise that will change any of that. The fact is, I'm stating my opinion, and I will never buy that someone else's opinion is better than my own. Even if it's the majority ruling (remember how so many people thought the world was flat? Sad day for them, huh?). Opinion is equal, even if you don't see it that way. Please respect others. I know sometimes people make it extremely difficult to respect them, especially if they say things to piss you off or that seem stupid to you, but you are in control of yourself, are you not? So please try. If everybody could stop being so stubborn and start respecting each other more, I think a lot of difficulties in the world, that are of human origin in relation to other humans, would go away (oh, cheesy cheesy statement, lol).

Whoa whoa whoa, wait a second. You seem to need to know every shred of evidence to believe in anything, yet you believe in frickin' KARMA?! You confuse me!!!:P

Hopefully you didn't find my rebuttals rude, as I know that gets under your skin.

[Neal]

This argument irks me. It's like saying we should give equal credibility to the theory of general relativity and the theory of invisible space-apes pushing planets around the sun. How do you know those invisible apes aren't there? They're invisible!
Because there's no plausible argument for that kind of claim. :wtf:

Where do all of our emotions, feelings, thoughts, personalities, etc originate? Merely in chemicals and hormones? I don't buy it.Really? You can actually alter them with other chemicals. It's not quite as simple as "they're chemicals" either. This has all been proven I'm afraid.

We are tiny, arrogant humans, who f*** things up more than we help anything, and half the time we blame everybody else for doing it (global warming [if it exists...oh the flaming I'll get for that], anybody?).You don't believe in Global Warming? Care to elaborate? :wtf:

Does it change the fact of the day? Will you wake up differently tomorrow than you did yesterday having 'proved your point'?If it is 100% proven that there is a God, then the world will change forever. Same goes if it's proven that there isn't one.

[Pyramid Head]

Because there's no plausible argument for that kind of claim. :wtf:

Exactly :)