What is the meaniing of life?

[Rekhyt]

Well? What is it???

[Lifrasthir]

To live a dangerous life.

[Lucrecia]

........uhhhhhhhhh......I can think of it soon..........

[Enedok]

Phulease, don't say 42 on any post below me.

Life is what you make it. Nobody else can tell you what it is.

[Kitmitsu]

To spell the word "meaning" right?

[Neal]

To spell the word "meaning" right?
Pretty shit life. :\

[Kitmitsu]

I'd die happy.

[XxFeaRLeSsxX]

The meaning of life?
...
...
... Cookies? :blink:

[Lifrasthir]

I wanna die at an old age. But I'm not scared of dying cause a mad killer is out to get me. Blowing up my car(I don't have a car :blink:) and telling me I have three minutes to confess my sin.

[Lucrecia]

I wanna die at an old age. But I'm not scared of dying cause a mad killer is out to get me. Blowing up my car(I don't have a car :blink:) and telling me I have three minutes to confess my sin.

:blink: What?:blink:

[Enedok]

If I die, I want to die hard.

*DonDonDon DOOOON*

*tuff guy*

[Kitmitsu]

Happiness + Apples = Happles :nod:

[Käthe]

Or...

Applness.
^_^

[Ringlets]

To spell the word "meaning" right?

Lol. The meaning of life is to make a thread about it, wait for someone to make a good answer then steal it.

[Rekhyt]

Lol. The meaning of life is to make a thread about it, wait for someone to make a good answer then steal it.

Curse you! You are going to ruin my plans!

[Magic Kaito]

The meaning of life? Is there any? The Human/s are the only person/s who's responsible for this and who gives life a meaning!... ...For example "The Paradise"!... ...Who's believe on that?

[Lucrecia]

Oh wait I figured it out. The meaning of life is to get hooked on Final Fantasy. Who didn't know that?:P

[Neal]

Or...

Applness.
^_^
I like your thinking. :cunning:

[Lifrasthir]

:blink: What?:blink:

I read too many books. :waco:

[Lucrecia]

I read too many books. :waco:

What books have you been reading to make you say such thing???If you've read Angels and Demons I could sort-of understand.

[Aquaman]

Think about this.

Your whole life you make choices, even when you think you don't. For instance, if you choose to not do your homework, you are still making a choice. All this ties in with how life becomes what you choose it to mean or be to you as an induvidual. If you want to be a FF fanatic, then you choose that life for yourself.

Now, there are still some things we cannot control but you still choose what life will mean to you at that point. For instance, if a car was blown up by terrorists, and you got metal in your eyes and were going to be blind for the rest of your life. I am pretty sure you would not want that to happen and you sure as hell did not choose it to unless you are a dumbass, BUT after finding that out you still determine the outcome and the quality of life that you can still enjoy for yourself by the choices you make.

All I am trying to say I guess is that the meaning of life is what you make it out to be by the choices you make each and every day.

Think about that...

[Lucrecia]

That makes perfect sense. At my school they have posters all around the building with things saying things like that. Things such as "Your choice, your life".

[Aquaman]

I know.:D

I took classes like Sociology and World Philosophy. I like to think A LOT.

Also, my Latin teacher tells us a lot of stuff like that and how the universe is a system.

[Kitmitsu]

That's one hell of an answer for a spam topic :blink:

[Devious]

1. the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.

One of 36 definitions for "life" on dictionary.com. :blink:

I guess the meaning of life is to die. Sad, but it's true. It's the only sure thing in life, besides life itself.

[Aquaman]

That's one hell of an answer for a spam topic :blink:

Yep. Like I said, I like to think a lot, thisa is one of the benefits of thinking a lot. You should all take World Philosophy if you can. You get to go into great detail about Socrates and all his theories....:w00t:

That is, if you are are deep thinker.....:shifty:

[Yurian]

There is no meaning to life.

Like characters in a novel, we are all bound to the nebulous rules of destiny governed by the eternal grip of Fate. It is not that we are doomed to perdition, nor are we on the road to salvation. We just are, existing and yet not existing in a story that never ends.

Time, The Universe, and Creation would still go on without humanity.

[Devious]

There is no meaning to life.

Like characters in a novel, we are all bound to the nebulous rules of destiny governed by the eternal grip of Fate. It is not that we are doomed to perdition, nor are we on the road to salvation. We just are, existing and yet not existing in a story that never ends.

Time, The Universe, and Creation would still go on without humanity.
:blink:

I don't believe in destiny. And when time travel is achieved, neither will you. That is, if it's in your lifetime.

[XxFeaRLeSsxX]

I wish flying or AT LEAST hybrid cars would be common by the time I'm in my 20's :blink:

[Devious]

I wish flying or AT LEAST hybrid cars would be common by the time I'm in my 20's :blink:
I'd love to fly.

[XxFeaRLeSsxX]

I believe I can flyyyyy!!! :lol:
Ooo, how about robot maids and talking computers with touch screens? :rolleyes:

[Yurian]

Time travel is impossible, because time does not reverse itself for the sake of humanity's trivial curiosity. In that effect, destiny is fulfilled. Everything we have done was already predetermined; everything we will do will be predetermined from what we have already done. Everything is one complex machine moving together in a thoughtless drift.

In reference to wormholes then, is that time travel? No. In traveling, time is traveling as well. "Going to the past" or "Going to the future" would then only be going somewhere else where a place of alternate reality exists parallel to our own. And yet that place is also part of the machine, and our actions there - should it come to be - would already have been predetermined.

Note: Predetermined does not be that it is predetermined by someone, as God or gods do not exist. I am just using "predetermined", in reference to the fact that our future (I'm also misusing that term) is already "predetermined" in accordance to our past actions.

This is spam, if you want to believe it to be.

EDIT: If you were to time travel, then that would be your destiny. It was already predetermined that you would "time travel", or "dimensionally traverse" for a term that is more correct.

[Lucrecia]

I believe I can flyyyyy!!! :lol:
Ooo, how about robot maids and talking computers with touch screens? :rolleyes:

I believe you will like this song, since you are having fun singing it.:rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY2Hp6KhGf4

[Inferno187]

Have fun and make money while your at it

[Lifrasthir]

Have fun and make money while your at it

Haha! Good one.

[Aquaman]

Time travel is impossible, because time does not reverse itself for the sake of humanity's trivial curiosity. In that effect, destiny is fulfilled. Everything we have done was already predetermined; everything we will do will be predetermined from what we have already done. Everything is one complex machine moving together in a thoughtless drift.

In reference to wormholes then, is that time travel? No. In traveling, time is traveling as well. "Going to the past" or "Going to the future" would then only be going somewhere else where a place of alternate reality exists parallel to our own. And yet that place is also part of the machine, and our actions there - should it come to be - would already have been predetermined.

Note: Predetermined does not be that it is predetermined by someone, as God or gods do not exist. I am just using "predetermined", in reference to the fact that our future (I'm also misusing that term) is already "predetermined" in accordance to our past actions.

This is spam, if you want to believe it to be.

EDIT: If you were to time travel, then that would be your destiny. It was already predetermined that you would "time travel", or "dimensionally traverse" for a term that is more correct.

Interesting theory...so if no one predetermined our future and knew our past, does that mean that everything happen by luck or as you call it "fate?" I

would assume that that means you believe in the big bang theory?

[Yurian]

I guess I could have expanded my explanation more. :P

In saying predetermination, there really is no future, and in effect, there is no luck and there is no fate. Believing in luck is conceding that things have not already been decided, and that sometimes in certain situations certain things just break off from the possibility of affecting other things. It's that kind of "Deus Ex Machina" theory that suggests that sometimes we are completely saved out of the blue. That's impossible according to this "chained machine" theory where everything affects everything else. (Is it affecting, or is it just there?) There is no indirect; everything is direct. (Is indirect/direct really what it is, or is it just there?) Although something may have happened behind us, or although something will be happening in front of us, the things around us are just part of a sequence of events, just like an action in a story. ( is it an action, or is it just there?)

Of course that doesn't mean that one can't be happy in believing that, but it's still kind of difficult to accept that fact (to me it's a fact) and still be genuinely happy. (Is that happiness/sadness/frustration/etc. that I'm experiencing, or is it just something that's there?) Just saying "forget about this completely and live" is like trying to deceive yourself. I already know that's how it is, so I can't deny it. (Is that knowledge inside of my head, or is it just there?) Of course I forget about it sometimes - I don't even think about it throughout the entire day - but it always eventually returns.

I haven't found a way to escape from this thought without always pre-occupying myself with constant activities - "A false salvation is just deception" - but I have found that I still enjoy life sometimes.

I used to think that the meaning of life was to help preserve the human race. Think about it - everything we do, when we are rational, is geared towards preserving our life, and making it as comfortable as possible. We don't want to be bad/evil/criminal, because it has a chance - be it .0000000001% - of hurting us. Even if we are to fight a war, we are trying to fight for a lifestyle that we want our children to experience and to live in. Although that's not what we say we believe to be the purpose of life, would not it seem extremely depressing if humanity was wiped from the face of the earth after thousands of years of innovation, hard work, and memories? Ultimately, our existence is just a infinitely small time span within the infinitely continuing time span of the universe.

If I were to toss aside the "There is no meaning to life.", I'd say the meaning to life for me is experiences, especially sharing experiences with others. Again, tossing aside the "no meaning to life" theory, to me everything is an experience. Whether I'm in a hell hole or at the gates of heaven, I'd still be happy if I know that there's someone who can share their experience with mine.

EDIT: Forgot to answer your question ehe. I don't really have a stance on the Big Bang Theory. If it happened, then it did. If it didn't, then it didn't.

I think I just invented something called serious spam. Tastes pretty good! :P

[Aquaman]

I guess I could have expanded my explanation more. :P

In saying predetermination, there really is no future, and in effect, there is no luck and there is no fate. Believing in luck is conceding that things have not already been decided, and that sometimes in certain situations certain things just break off from the possibility of affecting other things. It's that kind of "Deus Ex Machina" theory that suggests that sometimes we are completely saved out of the blue. That's impossible according to this "chained machine" theory where everything affects everything else. (Is it affecting, or is it just there?) There is no indirect; everything is direct. (Is indirect/direct really what it is, or is it just there?) Although something may have happened behind us, or although something will be happening in front of us, the things around us are just part of a sequence of events, just like an action in a story. ( is it an action, or is it just there?)

Of course that doesn't mean that one can't be happy in believing that, but it's still kind of difficult to accept that fact (to me it's a fact) and still be genuinely happy. (Is that happiness/sadness/frustration/etc. that I'm experiencing, or is it just something that's there?) Just saying "forget about this completely and live" is like trying to deceive yourself. I already know that's how it is, so I can't deny it. (Is that knowledge inside of my head, or is it just there?) Of course I forget about it sometimes - I don't even think about it throughout the entire day - but it always eventually returns.

I haven't found a way to escape from this thought without always pre-occupying myself with constant activities - "A false salvation is just deception" - but I have found that I still enjoy life sometimes.

I used to think that the meaning of life was to help preserve the human race. Think about it - everything we do, when we are rational, is geared towards preserving our life, and making it as comfortable as possible. We don't want to be bad/evil/criminal, because it has a chance - be it .0000000001% - of hurting us. Even if we are to fight a war, we are trying to fight for a lifestyle that we want our children to experience and to live in. Although that's not what we say we believe to be the purpose of life, would not it seem extremely depressing if humanity was wiped from the face of the earth after thousands of years of innovation, hard work, and memories? Ultimately, our existence is just a infinitely small time span within the infinitely continuing time span of the universe.

If I were to toss aside the "There is no meaning to life.", I'd say the meaning to life for me is experiences, especially sharing experiences with others. Again, tossing aside the "no meaning to life" theory, to me everything is an experience. Whether I'm in a hell hole or at the gates of heaven, I'd still be happy if I know that there's someone who can share their experience with mine.

EDIT: Forgot to answer your question ehe. I don't really have a stance on the Big Bang Theory. If it happened, then it did. If it didn't, then it didn't.

I think I just invented something called serious spam. Tastes pretty good! :P

Much better explanation, its pretty deep too.

I agree with that somewhat. I think that some things in the universe are predetermined and are just the way they are. For example, the law of electricity.

Electricity works regardless of what will happen. If lightning strikes a building and would cause an explosion because the building was a meth lab, electricity works anyway because:

-It is an inanimate object. Electricity cannot feel..
-Because it was made to and that is all it does, it abides by the laws of the universe and not by the ones that we, mankind, the human race, have created by ourselves.

Now, I might have just gone off on a real tangent there, and this might not even make any sense to you Yurian or anybody else, and it might not even make sense to me later.....:D

And I do not believe in the Big Bang Theory....

[Yurian]

Going with the electricity example you suggested, lightning is fundamentally an electrical energy charge that excites particles to such heat that they momentarily give off a bright flash of light. It's the properties of air reacting to the properties of an electrical charge.

Are we not just a complex set of properties reacting to other properties as well? Are the things we hold so important - feelings, experiences, thoughts - just some reactions within the nervous system in reaction to external influences?

[XxFeaRLeSsxX]

I believe you will like this song, since you are having fun singing it.:rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY2Hp6KhGf4

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! I've never really heard the song, just that one of my classmates was always singing it to get on his friend's nerves :lol:
Thanks for putting it on here, Lucrecia! *bows and gives you a cookie*

[Aquaman]

Going with the electricity example you suggested, lightning is fundamentally an electrical energy charge that excites particles to such heat that they momentarily give off a bright flash of light. It's the properties of air reacting to the properties of an electrical charge.

Are we not just a complex set of properties reacting to other properties as well? Are the things we hold so important - feelings, experiences, thoughts - just some reactions within the nervous system in reaction to external influences?

Hmmm, I guess you would be correct. Never thought about it that way. But we as the human race are not what I would call a complex set of properties.

Even though our bodies are made of many properties that work together seamlessly in most cases, i would not call the nervous system JUST reactions. Don't misinterpret this in any way, yes the nervous systems job is to relay messages through your nervous system throughout your body BY reactions BUT those reactions are not just reactions.

Our minds think out the way to react to those external influences in different ways depending on the situations that are occuring at one point in time and based on the induvidual not just the external influences.

[Yurian]

Each lightning bolt is different, but fundamentally the same.

We're all different, with so many different reactions to different stimuli, but fundamentally we share almost the same characteristics throughout.

If they are more than reactions, then what else are they?

[Lifrasthir]

@_@ So many words Yurian and L-A.....

[Aquaman]

Each lightning bolt is different, but fundamentally the same.

We're all different, with so many different reactions to different stimuli, but fundamentally we share almost the same characteristics throughout.

If they are more than reactions, then what else are they?

Well, fundamentally they are still reactions, but there is so much more to a reaction then just the nervous system. First of all, each persons reactions would be different depending on the genes they have I guess.

I just think that there is so much more that must go into the reactions in your nervous system then we know at this point in time and that there has to be something more that we do not know yet.

So, in answer to your question, I have no idea at this point in time and i do not think anybody else does either. But then again that was a good question. I will have to think about that at work tommorow and then edit this post.:D

EDIT: TF, it is a deep topic and has to be explained well, and that can only be done in a lot of words. Plus, this is interesting.:w00t:

[Devious]

Somebody's cynical. Predetermined fate? Maybe. The whole thing is a paradox. If you know your fate, you change it, and that becomes your new fate. Or maybe the fate you saw was incorrect, and you were meant to change your fate. Then you could change that one, etc, etc.

It's pretty much impossible to determine whether there is such a thing as fate. Unless you were somehow able to destroy... well, it. Like, everything. Time, space, everything. They should really invent a word for that. Infinity doesn't begin to describe it.

Well, what about the purpose of life instead? Personally, I believe the purpose of life is to survive. (no shit) But there can't be a purpose if it's already predetermined what you would do. If that were the case, then you've already achieved your purpose the moment existence was created, long before your grandparents were born. Does it give anyone a feeling that they have no say in how their lives go? Not me, I'm pretty optimistic. Except for the "life is death" comment. That was emo.

I wonder how Douglas Adams came up with 42.

Oh, one more thing, if our fate was already determined, we might as well sit back and do nothing until we die, since that would be our fate.

[Yurian]

You're misunderstanding my point, Domino. According to dictionary.com, fate is the universal principle or ultimate agency by which the order of things is presumably prescribed; the decreed cause of events; time. In saying that, it's impossible to change your fate. Even in knowing it (which is impossible in itself, given the fact that it's impossible to literally take into account every possible action to every possible reaction because everything that is done affects everything else; that doesn't mean fate can't be predicted, though), it would still end up the way it is despite your efforts to change it. Even if you were to travel to the future/past to change your fate, it would already be within your fate to travel to the future/past - and so inevitably you still wouldn't be able to change it.

We'll use your screenname as an example, where a domino refers to an action. Say, if I set up a line of dominoes (actions) standing up next to each other. Just a push on the first domino would inevitably lead to the fall of the last domino. Now imagine a whole grid of dominoes between the first and the last domino where each one is directly connected to the next. No matter what happens, if the first domino falls, the last one does as well. Now you could say, "What if I put a random object between several of the dominoes, wouldn't that change my fate?" No, it was fated for that object to be there, and so the final domino wouldn't fall anymore, but then it was never meant to fall anyway.

In response to sitting back and dieing, I had offered my previous view on the purpose of life.
I used to think that the meaning of life was to help preserve the human race. Think about it - everything we do, when we are rational, is geared towards preserving our life, and making it as comfortable as possible. We don't want to be bad/evil/criminal, because it has a chance - be it .0000000001% - of hurting us. Even if we are to fight a war, we are trying to fight for a lifestyle that we want our children to experience and to live in. Although that's not what we say we believe to be the purpose of life, would not it seem extremely depressing if humanity was wiped from the face of the earth after thousands of years of innovation, hard work, and memories? Ultimately, our existence is just a infinitely small time span within the infinitely continuing time span of the universe.
It's against human rationality to want to die. We rationally want to view fate not as an end from a means, but rather as an infinite number of ends from an infinite number of means. Even non-human organisms seek to preserve their race as effectively as possible by attempting to adapt to the environment. In our case, we're always trying to find a way to live as long and comfortably as possible, because we want to preserve our race.

To L-A: Genes are comprised of molecules which are comprised of atoms which are comprised of protons/electrons/etc. which are comprised of etc. Foundationally, that is what everything is made of. Everything depends on the make up of its lower foundation, and in seeing that if every lower foundation inevitably is of the same thing, then the rules that everything follows must be foundationally the same. There's no "personality" or "variation" to these precepts. They just work the way they work. They just are.

In consequence, fate isn't really a paradox at all. There's no mystery behind it. Because as humans we want something greater, where we can say we can circumscribe the effects of fate, we want fate to remain a mystery and dissappear.

Of course that doesn't mean you can't live in that mentality. It's definitely more healthy to live in thinking that you have a purpose to do something important (obviously).

[Lucrecia]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! I've never really heard the song, just that one of my classmates was always singing it to get on his friend's nerves :lol:
Thanks for putting it on here, Lucrecia! *bows and gives you a cookie*

Your welcome. *gives XxFeaRLeSsxX the famous chocolate cake*

http://www.johncarverinn.com/images/chocolate-cake.jpg

[XxFeaRLeSsxX]

Your welcome. *gives XxFeaRLeSsxX the famous chocolate cake*

http://www.johncarverinn.com/images/chocolate-cake.jpg

*drools* Chocolate...good..... :lol:

[Askyria]

...What was once a spam topic is now this like, philosophical wall of text that I really don't wanna read. xD Walls of text. T_T.

[XxFeaRLeSsxX]

*cuts the chocolate cake up in lots of pieces*
Who wants some? :P

[Aquaman]

...What was once a spam topic is now this like, philosophical wall of text that I really don't wanna read. xD Walls of text. T_T.

Humph...Don't read it if you don't want too. It good stuff though.:D

To L-A: Genes are comprised of molecules which are comprised of atoms which are comprised of protons/electrons/etc. which are comprised of etc. Foundationally, that is what everything is made of. Everything depends on the make up of its lower foundation, and in seeing that if every lower foundation inevitably is of the same thing, then the rules that everything follows must be foundationally the same. There's no "personality" or "variation" to these precepts. They just work the way they work. They just are.

In consequence, fate isn't really a paradox at all. There's no mystery behind it. Because as humans we want something greater, where we can say we can circumscribe the effects of fate, we want fate to remain a mystery and dissappear.

Of course that doesn't mean you can't live in that mentality. It's definitely more healthy to live in thinking that you have a purpose to do something important (obviously).Hmm, I guess your right but I was reffrering more to the fact that when you are born you have genes randomly picked out of your mother's and father's gene pool and as far as we know I think that Scientists cannot determine how the selection of genes works. All we know is that in a long family history, certain genes pop up more that others....but that is a another whole topic in and of itself...:D

By the way, good exaple with the dominos.

Oh yeah, Vanilla cake is better... :w00t:

[Lucrecia]

Humph...Don't read it if you don't want too. It good stuff though.:D

Hmm, I guess your right but I was reffrering more to the fact that when you are born you have genes randomly picked out of your mother's and father's gene pool and as far as we know I think that Scientists cannot determine how the selection of genes works. All we know is that in a long family history, certain genes pop up more that others....but that is a another whole topic in and of itself...:D

By the way, good exaple with the dominos.

Oh yeah, Vanilla cake is better... :w00t:

I can explain that gene theory easily. It was one of my best subjects in Science because it was easy for me to understand...I think I got a 100...yeah I got a 100 on my exam.:D

And Chocolate cake is better!!!!!!! Wait I can fix this problem........

http://baking.about.com/library/graphics/finishedcake.jpg

[Rikku]

We'll use your screenname as an example, where a domino refers to an action. Say, if I set up a line of dominoes (actions) standing up next to each other. Just a push on the first domino would inevitably lead to the fall of the last domino. Now imagine a whole grid of dominoes between the first and the last domino where each one is directly connected to the next. No matter what happens, if the first domino falls, the last one does as well. Now you could say, "What if I put a random object between several of the dominoes, wouldn't that change my fate?" No, it was fated for that object to be there, and so the final domino wouldn't fall anymore, but then it was never meant to fall anyway.

If life was as simple as a chain of dominos, I would be a happy, happy person.

And for the record, I do not believe in fate. I believe in chaos.

[Yurian]

Complexity is simple in that it's easy to say, whereas simplicity is complex in that it's so damn hard to realize! In saying that, life is as simple as a chain - or infinite number of chains - of dominoes. It's just human beings' inability to percieve through this and accept it - that's why it seems complex.

How would you believe in chaos? I've never heard of that theory before. According to what I understand, chaos is a human interpretation of what they can't understand. It's briefing reality to a supposed randomness that's too "complex" (complex used loosely) for humans to completely grasp, if to grasp at all. Ultimately, there is no chaos because reality/existence/computers/telephones/machines/sun/sky/everything is an entire machine working - actually, it's not a machine. It just is. There's always a cause behind an action. Or maybe, there is no cause or action. It just is.

Or maybe...teddy bears weren't named after Theodore Roosevelt. Garr...

Honestly, I'm rambling right now, not because I'm confusing myself, or because I have no where to go. I've just never thought past this point.

Mmm...

EDIT:
Just had to add this in. Sometimes, I wonder if I'm easy to read. I'm usually quiet, and in that I try to see myself through others' eyes. What do I seem like?

After reading my above explanation *cough*rambling*cough*, it really does make me seem like I don't really like reaching out past things I find useless, or otherwise not entertaining.

Mmm...cookie.

[Lifrasthir]

I'm suddenly confused by the large wall of text...

teddy bears weren't named after Theodore Roosevelt. Garr...

Where'd that come from??? No please don't ask me to read all that!

[Aquaman]

Complexity is simple in that it's easy to say, whereas simplicity is complex in that it's so damn hard to realize! In saying that, life is as simple as a chain - or infinite number of chains - of dominoes. It's just human beings' inability to percieve through this and accept it - that's why it seems complex.

How would you believe in chaos? I've never heard of that theory before. According to what I understand, chaos is a human interpretation of what they can't understand. It's briefing reality to a supposed randomness that's too "complex" (complex used loosely) for humans to completely grasp, if to grasp at all. Ultimately, there is no chaos because reality/existence/computers/telephones/machines/sun/sky/everything is an entire machine working - actually, it's not a machine. It just is. There's always a cause behind an action. Or maybe, there is no cause or action. It just is.

Or maybe...teddy bears weren't named after Theodore Roosevelt. Garr...

Honestly, I'm rambling right now, not because I'm confusing myself, or because I have no where to go. I've just never thought past this point.

Mmm...

EDIT:
Just had to add this in. Sometimes, I wonder if I'm easy to read. I'm usually quiet, and in that I try to see myself through others' eyes. What do I seem like?

After reading my above explanation *cough*rambling*cough*, it really does make me seem like I don't really like reaching out past things I find useless, or otherwise not entertaining.

Mmm...cookie.

Yurian, you sound very smart, very opinionized, philisophical, and hungry.

To Lucrecia: Sweet. I did really good in science too, made a 95 on the final. I would like for you to explain the gene thing, it has been a while since I had science.

If you want we could start a thread but we would proably be the only ones on it....and I still think vanilla cake is better.

To TF: Hmmm, you arte confused yet we explained everything the best we could. Read it again, see if that helps....

[Rikku]

Complexity is simple in that it's easy to say, whereas simplicity is complex in that it's so damn hard to realize! In saying that, life is as simple as a chain - or infinite number of chains - of dominoes. It's just human beings' inability to percieve through this and accept it - that's why it seems complex.


That's an entirely different example. If, by 'infinite number of chains', you mean a different chain for every possible effect of every possible action of every conceivable cause -- then that's entirely different from the not-as-quite-as-detailed example you made earlier.

The fact is, though, the way you perceive fate (or at least the way I think you are), can't work out from my views. Why? Well, first of all, who says that object was meant to be there already? Because if it were, then that would suggest some form of supernatural influence.

And I don't believe in the supernatural. It just comes down to that. EDIT: Neither do you, apparently. xD *just read some earlier posts*

The 'fate' that I do partially believe in is Karma, which can be simply explained in the terms of 'what comes around, goes around'. When it comes to Karma, you can take the first step. However, once you take it, you get a series of results that are predictable and inevitable. Even in that theory, however, you have freedom, which is limited (in that vein, if you applied these aspects of Karma to your domino theory, it would be a lot more believable).

There are still certain aspects of Karma which I do not believe in, however. Those aspects would also suggest supernatural influence ( reincarnation according to what you have done in your life), which I, once again, do not believe in.


How would you believe in chaos? I've never heard of that theory before. According to what I understand, chaos is a human interpretation of what they can't understand. (1) It's briefing reality to a supposed randomness that's too "complex" (complex used loosely) for humans to completely grasp, if to grasp at all. Ultimately, there is no chaos because reality/existence/computers/telephones/machines/sun/sky/everything is an entire machine working - actually, it's not a machine. It just is. (2) There's always a cause behind an action. Or maybe, there is no cause or action. It just is.

1) The chaos theory works 'towards finding the underlying order in apparently random data', as I have read before in a conveniently coherent site.

2) Asides from the fact that the bolded phrase doesn't make sense (it's all a machine - actually, it's not a machine. It is a machine!), you can't say reality or existence is an entire machine working. Not only did you not back that up to my satisfaction (because I am egostical enough to say that XD), but reality in itself is not that predictable from my view. Things get more random over time.

There's this thing called 'sensitive dependence on initial conditions', or 'butterfly effect', which comes from 'chaos theory', that can actually be observed in every day life, from the currents of the ocean to the branches of trees. Something, no matter how small, can cause enormously huge disruptions -- like the old 'a butterfly flapping its wings causes a miniscule change in the atmosphere. After a while, that same atmosphere diverges from what should have happened to what is happening now. A tornado doesn't occur. A hurricane does'.

Chaos is simply the most logical approach to me. For Karma and Fate to happen, life would have to be fair and supernatural influence would have to occur. Life's not fair and I don't believe in the supernatural. Therefore, I turn to chaos.

And I probably just went off topic and misunderstood the original point you were trying to make. Oh well, rambling was fun.

EDIT:
And as a random note, there is no meaning to life. Well, biologically speaking, you breathe, eat, make babies, and die. Yeah. Preserve the race. Otherwise, make up your own damn purpose. Mine is to determinedly waste space until I become a doctor and keep people healthy. Or at least attempt to.

But no, there is not set meaning from my view.

[Yurian]

Reading your explanation, and from what I understand of it, I'm still edging towards the idea that chaos theory is still a very human perspective based on the aspects they can't understand. Especially when the word "fair" was included - that's something that's extremely human. It's a human preference over what they would prefer in contrast to something that they would not like. If a lion killed a cute baby antelope, there's no unfairness in that at all. It's just how nature works. Ultimately, there's always an order or a pattern behind nature's seemingly mysterious/complex ways.

It's only humans (and possibly every other organism, but we can't really understand them) who can't recognize that. And maybe that inability to recognize is a natural as well. After all, we are part of the natural order as well. There's no way for us to escape it, because everything we do is natural. I know I'm going back on a previous point when I say this, but even irrationality can be considered natural for us. It would actually be rationality (from nature's perspective), because irrationality is a societal concept for what the general public would think insane. It's not what nature would deem insane, because we are part of nature, so our actions are part of nature.

Doubling back again, if irrationality is not rationality, but then again if irrationality is rationality - what is it in the end? This opposition between humanity's perspective of occurrences and the wider scope of the universe's perspective (perspective used loosely) on occurrences contributes to my idea that thing's just are. They may have a purpose from humanity's point of view, but from a wider perspective within the entire universe, thing's just are.

Talking about the butterfly effect, that kind of fits into fate as well. If you were to break it down completely, there isn't a possibility for change within it. If everything affects everything else - and everything does affect everything else - then you could say that:
1) Beginning of earth. Organism moves in a pool of water.
2) Movement of the organism spurs a reaction within the organism to develop into a more complex being.
3) Organism develops more, gaining fish like qualities.
10000000...infinite number of 0s) A human eats cereal in her bed in front of the television.
10000000...infinite number of 0s + 1)The human moves, causing the wind to shift a little in her bedroom.
10000000...infinite number of 0s + 2) A butterfly flaps its wings after being slightly pushed by the seemingly miniscule disturbance in the wind's speed.
10000000...infinite number of 0s + 3) A hurricane, conjured up by the butterfly's wing-flap half a world away, destroys an entire city.

And this is just a linear portryal of that example. With everything connected, there are an infinite billion more of connections, with everything working togethr and affecting everything else. It's like a machine, but then it's not a machine, because it just is. (Just is not meaning just is -a machine-, but just is as in just is existing (the term exisiting used loosely))

With that example, I'm trying to portray the idea that there is no choice within actions, because everything - if broken down to the most miniscule of actions, to the most fundamental forms of existence (existence not necessarily pointed at living creatures - has a cause behind its action.

That is where fate comes in as the ultimate "deity". (deity used in a loose term)

EDIT:
An example to think about:
William Shakespeare: "There is nothing either good or evil, but thinking makes it so."

In nature, there is nothing either good or evil, but humanity's thinking makes it so. From there, we have wars, debates, friendship, love, hate, desire, avarice. lust, civilizations, etc. And yet we are also part of nature. Our wars, debates, friendships, love, hate, desire, avarice, lust civilizations, etc. are all within nature's never extending and yet never stopping circle. What does this mean then, that our ideas are part of nature, and yet not really natural? In the end, they are still part of nature, and what seems unnatural, is actually natural. They just are (existing...not machines XD; sorry about the confusion).

Maybe that will clear up my idea.

[Lucrecia]

.......Too many words....:(

[Askyria]

...I just clicked on newest post and I was greeted with yet another wall of text. XD

[Rikku]

Reading your explanation, and from what I understand of it, I'm still edging towards the idea that chaos theory is still a very human perspective based on the aspects they can't understand. (1) Especially when the word "fair" was included - that's something that's extremely human. It's a human preference over what they would prefer in contrast to something that they would not like. If a lion killed a cute baby antelope, there's no unfairness in that at all. (2) It's just how nature works. Ultimately, there's always an order or a pattern behind nature's seemingly mysterious/complex ways. (3)

1) I'm sorry, but this made me laugh. No, no, it's a valid opinion and I'm respectful of it, but you're talking as if you're not human. -gets whacked- XD; Well, no, it's not quite that anyway. It's partially my fault for not better explaining. @_@;

2) I never implied that a lion killing a cute baby antelope wasn't fair. A lion killing a cute baby antelope is purely out of survival. But then, who are you and I to say what's fair and what's not?

I only brought out 'fair' because that's what Karma is ultimately about.

3) In contrast to that statement, chaotic behaviour has already been observed like I have already stated. Even in machines. Chaotic behaviour in nature is also observed; population growth in ecology, dynamics of action potentials in neurons, and molecular vibrations being amongst them -- if I remember correctly.

But, yes, there is an order and pattern. I think you have just misunderstood the term 'chaos' used here:

The 'chaos' is actually kind of different from the common definition of chaos (which is complete disorder). The chaos in chaos theory is deterministic chaos. It only appears chaotic because of the sensitivity to initial conditions. This sensitivity thus causes an exponential growth of errors. It is deterministic in the sense that if there were no random elements involved, future results would be well-defined by initial conditions.

This is why there are patterns in some attractors (i.e. Lorenz attractor). However, there are still very anomalistic attractors existing.

So, no, chaos theory is not a simple answer to things not understood by humans.


They may have a purpose from humanity's point of view, but from a wider perspective within the entire universe, thing's just are.

That totally destroys the concept of Karma (which is the closest specific form of Fate I can think of at the moment to what you support); things 'just are' would imply that they have no reason, and therefore are irrational. When it comes to Fate (Karma?), everything happens for a reason.

But I'm still not quite clear what you're talking about, since it's in quite a round-about fashion, in my opinion. o_O If I've totally misunderstood you, feel free to smack me and reiterate.

Talking about the butterfly effect, that kind of fits into fate as well. If you were to break it down completely, there isn't a possibility for change within it. (1)


No, chaos theory is entirely different from Karma/Fate asides from the fact that the chain of dominos is set off by the first push made by yourself.

Fate is entirely different because the Fate that I think you described earlier basically refers to a series of events that are ultimately inescapable (meaning no free will, and that everything has been "written out" for you) with a clear-cut pattern. In Chaos Theory, it can go one way or the other. The butterfly could intensify the tornado. The butterfly could also prevent it. Once again, error comes down to play, which has no real reason behind it -- and that makes things get more random over time.

With that example, I'm trying to portray the idea that there is no choice within actions, because everything - if broken down to the most miniscule of actions, to the most fundamental forms of existence (existence not necessarily pointed at living creatures - has a cause behind its action.

That is where fate comes in as the ultimate "deity". (deity used in a loose term)

Oh, yes, everything has a cause behind its action (well, almost). I'm not arguing with that. I'm arguing that free will is present as well as the fact that everything is not predetermined.

I don't see how actions having cause would conflict with choice. I could have my set of actions set out before me, but whichever trajectory I choose depends on what I feel like. That is called 'free will'.

Plus, why was the universe created? For us to exist? Because it was fated to? No. It just was. =P And at random, too, depending on some beliefs. Unless you're religious; but then you wouldn't believe in Karma...

Also, define 'deity'.

Lastly, I still do not quite understand your domino analogy. How do you know that object was meant to be there? How could that object have been meant to been there from the start without supernatural influence? I probably sound very stupid but my tiny 13-year old brain can't make the inferences on four hours of sleep.

In fact, this entire post probably sounds stupid. .___.;;

EDIT: And since I was being so stupid, I edited out a few unnecessary statements. XD

[XxFeaRLeSsxX]

*comes in and sees the walls of text*
HOLY SHI-- COW! WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?! *heart attack*

[Yurian]

What I mean is that even seemingly random events are in fact not random. It’s because we don’t understand them, that’s why we say they are random/chaotic. Deterministic chaos/Chaos theory is a human concept because it means we don’t understand some (a lot) of things around us. It’s not a truth, because it probably can’t be proven. Eventually, humanity will probably find an answer to a lot of its questions. And in that, it will ask many more questions about seemingly mysterious/random occurrences.

How would we have free will, if our supposed decisions are really just our hormones put together with our genes and our experiences reacting to the environment? Isn’t that fate, because there would be no free will? Is not, then, Karma hopeful luck that things will happen according to our wishes? Natural occurrences don’t include hopeful luck, unless we deliberately try to achieve our wanted ends. And even that wouldn’t be considered luck any more.

What, then, differentiates us from a tree or a mosquito? Do they have free will as well? In the end, are we not just a bunch of reactions reacting to the environment, i.e. our bodies, held down to the earth, are reacting to the pull of gravity? Aren’t we just molecules and atoms, reacting amongst space and some other unknown molecular particle(s)?

That’s why fate is the ultimate deity. Things are prescribed according the rules of the most fundamental elements of existence. Right now, I could say those fundamentals are atoms and electrons/proton/etc., but there’s something even smaller to that that makes those atoms work that way. And there’s something that will infinitely be smaller than that something smaller than an electron. And I don’t think those small things have a purpose. Fate is a deity not because it has a face, or because it has a conscience – it has neither, in fact – but because its rule that everything is predetermined cannot be circumscribed.

Like time or dimensional space, there is nothing else that can equal it or replace it. We can replace a certain type of paper for another, because they can all achieve multiple purposes. (the word purpose just used in this case to contrast with the purpose of fate) But because fate is the only aspect inside an only category, it alone can only serve the purpose of just being. And that’s not really a purpose at all. It just is.

I’d be toppled into big time incorrectness if a god or gods existed, but even if they did, they don’t really do anything. They don’t have a place to exist above fate, because they would too exist.

[Aquaman]

Hmm. I am going to have to agree with Yurian.

Even if the human race finds out the cure for cancer or the cure for AID's or anything like that, a new virus will appear to overcome our immune systems time and time again. The human race is never satisfied with the current answers we have, we always want better ones.

Curiosity is what drives us in my opinion, and is what better people in general and helps us to learn the difference between humane and inhumane, right and wrong, Etc..

And maybe, in the end, curiosity will also be the driving force that wipes out the human race, who knows.....................

EDIT: Yes! No wall of text!